Mississauga Hurontario-Main Line 10 LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[drum118]

I went down to the Mississauga Hurontario LRT open house yesterday and have a few things to discuss from what I saw.

The connections at Cooksville and Port Credit GO don't seem like "connections" at all. Reminds me of the Bloor GO Station connection with Dundas West subway station.

For Port Credit, the train simply pulls up at the parking lot, forcing passengers to walk a long ways to the trains. I think a better connection could be made right under the bridge or perhaps the LRT aligning westward along side the corridor as proposed for Brampton GO station at the northern terminus.



Also at Cooksville GO, having passengers disembark and cross the street is a hassle. How about extending the LRT platform south toward the rail bridge and having a pair of escalators leading up the bridge and meet a new westward extension of the GO platforms?



In addition, I see no tail tracks, pocket tracks or spurs to temporary storage anywhere along the corridor. With the single maintenance facility way up by highway 407, it would take a long time to roll out trains in the morning especially near the southern extremities of the line. Not to mention what would happen if an LRV gets disabled midway.

Finally, the northern portion of the route is proposed to be a shared ROW with cars, eliminating street parking which I think is vital to the business and street scape on those last 2 km of the line. Furthermore, they will do away with overhead wires and run the LRV's on battery power - something I don't really seem feasible from an engineering perspective. Why would you design and build a battery powered LRV to run on a line that's 90% running from overhead wires? The battery weight and cost should be taken into consideration, along with a realignment of this part of the line or possibly tunneling.

I appreciate your discussion on my thoughts.

You can buy battery power car that can travel up to 3km without overhead power. I rode them in Nice in 2012 and since then, 2 of them have had fire caused by the batteries. There are a number of other places you will find battery power car.

Port Credit is a 3.5 block walk to the bus terminal and GO personal. Nice on a nice day, but a bitch during the winter month. Harder on non able walkers. To do what you want kills the development plan for the site as well taking the line into Port Credit itself.

The line is still to go south as plan and depends on what going to happen to the ESSO lands. Until that is know if anything can be done with it, where to put the station at One Port is up in the air as well moving ahead with the plan. The station at Port St can either be on the street a original plan with provision to go west at some future date. Current proposal calls for the station going north-south beside it with the line going over a span bridge to get to the centre of the ESSO Lands with a station going n-s for future expansion. The best I can see for the line going west from both location is 30+ years unless the minds change to allow higher density along Lakeshore to Southdown Rd.

As for Brampton, that is the best option and is supported by a large amount of the BIA, as there is more than enough parking a block away.

As for Cooksville, too narrow to do what you want, but a set of stairs from the new walkway bridge would help. An elevator would be too hard to be put in like the stair and not enough room to do so.

The plan calls for the line to run as 2 system with both using the loop requiring riders to transfer between them which is "SURE STUPID" and wasting people time if you want to bypass Sq One in the first place. The headway could be different for both lines where one is every 5 minutes while the other is 10-15 minutes, especially the Brampton line.

No place to put pocket tracks and why all the crossover are there to bypass a broken down train. They will need a truck like Edinburgh UK just bought to pull the train back to the yard. As far as I known, MU couples will be used to mate car together as either double or triple.

Edit Noted: Considering there is only 1.5/2 blocks that has been requested by Brampton Council to have no overhead if possible, is not feasibly to do so on a cost base alone.

I was at Brampton also, looking for number pertaining to the loop. The impression I got they are very poor like I though and he needs permission from higher up to give them to me. That request has been made and will sit back looking for them so I can do the killing of the loop, since it has never made senses from day one.

As for the line not going up LAC Dr, it is due to the loading bays of LAC, City Hall and One Capital. It was the first choice of the design team.

 

[TOareaFan]

So the most interesting tidbit I got at the Brampton session tonight is that the reports I was carrying (to ask some questions that have been nagging me) are useless and cannot be relied on. Apparantly they have refined their ridership projections and new reports are coming out (or are already ready) and show peak demand SB in 2031 at 2,800 (the ML guy I was talking to used that number as I was discussing the similar number in the old reports) and it was one he could remember.

I was told thanks for your questions/feedback but "there is absolutely zero chance this plan is changing"....so the supporters of this should be very happy.

they continue to suggest this will spur massive redevelopment on the corridor including the Brampton section but, in the end, we agreed that the old Brampton Mall is, really, the only really developable tract of land between Nelson and Steeles.

I got there late so there was not much else I could get from this.

 

[TOareaFan]

The plan calls for the line to run as 2 system with both using the loop requiring riders to transfer between them which is "SURE STUPID" and wasting people time if you want to bypass Sq One in the first place. The headway could be different for both lines where one is every 5 minutes while the other is 10-15 minutes, especially the Brampton line.

Tonight they assured me that both would be 5 minute headways so "on average you will only wait 2.5 minutes for a transfer".....clearly if the idea (which ultimately may make sense) the North - Brampton section is reduced to 10-15 minutes then that transfer could increase to an average of 5 - 7.5 minutes....likely not a story you wanna tell at a Brampton PIC

 

[drum118]

So the most interesting tidbit I got at the Brampton session tonight is that the reports I was carrying (to ask some questions that have been nagging me) are useless and cannot be relied on. Apparantly they have refined their ridership projections and new reports are coming out (or are already ready) and show peak demand SB in 2031 at 2,800 (the ML guy I was talking to used that number as I was discussing the similar number in the old reports) and it was one he could remember.

I was told thanks for your questions/feedback but "there is absolutely zero chance this plan is changing"....so the supporters of this should be very happy.

they continue to suggest this will spur massive redevelopment on the corridor including the Brampton section but, in the end, we agreed that the old Brampton Mall is, really, the only really developable tract of land between Nelson and Steeles.

I got there late so there was not much else I could get from this.

There are 3 areas on the east side that can be redeveloped to support higher density and offer better land use in the area you noted. Shoppers World is the only area on the west side.

South of Steeles, both side has room for redevelopment all the way to Sq One with very few exception.

Edit: the Ssssssh time different was told to me at both EA's. Yes the north end doesn't support the same headway today, but in 5-10 years it will once the 2 Eglinton development get built.

 

[TOareaFan]

There are 3 areas on the east side that can be redeveloped to support higher density and offer better land use in the area you noted. Shoppers World is the only area on the west side.

South of Steeles, both side has room for redevelopment all the way to Sq One with very few exception.

Edit: the Ssssssh time different was told to me at both EA's. Yes the north end doesn't support the same headway today, but in 5-10 years it will once the 2 Eglinton development get built.

We probably disagree on how much developable land there is on the section of this route in Brampton but time will tell. The 2,800 figure I was told was in 2031 so 10 years after opening.

 

[innsertnamehere]

So the most interesting tidbit I got at the Brampton session tonight is that the reports I was carrying (to ask some questions that have been nagging me) are useless and cannot be relied on. Apparantly they have refined their ridership projections and new reports are coming out (or are already ready) and show peak demand SB in 2031 at 2,800 (the ML guy I was talking to used that number as I was discussing the similar number in the old reports) and it was one he could remember.

I was told thanks for your questions/feedback but "there is absolutely zero chance this plan is changing"....so the supporters of this should be very happy.

they continue to suggest this will spur massive redevelopment on the corridor including the Brampton section but, in the end, we agreed that the old Brampton Mall is, really, the only really developable tract of land between Nelson and Steeles.

I got there late so there was not much else I could get from this.

I think you underestimate the power of redevelopment through buying multiple houses and creating larger lots. Its happening quite a bit in Kitchener, I don't see why it can't happen here.

Feeder bus routes as well as general development in Downtown Brampton will build ridership as well. The Queen street BRT will feed into it.

also using 1 car trains on the northern portion can easily push it up to a good frequency. Add a second car when needed, if needed.

As for overbuilding, Finch will have roughly the same ridership and Kitchener is significantly lower, and don't even get me started on US projects.

 

[howl]

I think you underestimate the power of redevelopment through buying multiple houses and creating larger lots. Its happening quite a bit in Kitchener, I don't see why it can't happen here.

Feeder bus routes as well as general development in Downtown Brampton will build ridership as well. The Queen street BRT will feed into it.

also using 1 car trains on the northern portion can easily push it up to a good frequency. Add a second car when needed, if needed.

As for overbuilding, Finch will have roughly the same ridership and Kitchener is significantly lower, and don't even get me started on US projects.

From Shopper's World south to the 407 there is lots of development potential - there could be ten's of thousands of people in that area in the future. North of Shopper's World Hurontario goes through a valley/park area and the only development site is the old Brampton Mall - which is largely in the flood plain so development might be limited. North of that you're into an historic strip of old houses that won't be going anywhere, and then into historic downtown. The real development potential is two or three blocks off Main Street to the east and west, and north of the railway line. I think in the future downtown Brampton will have a lower central historic core with a U-shaped ring of tall buildings around it to the north, east and west.

 

[TOareaFan]

From Shopper's World south to the 407 there is lots of development potential - there could be ten's of thousands of people in that area in the future.

There is? where?

North of Shopper's World Hurontario goes through a valley/park area and the only development site is the old Brampton Mall - which is largely in the flood plain so development might be limited. North of that you're into an historic strip of old houses that won't be going anywhere, and then into historic downtown.

Agree.

The real development potential is two or three blocks off Main Street to the east and west, and north of the railway line. I think in the future downtown Brampton will have a lower central historic core with a U-shaped ring of tall buildings around it to the north, east and west.

That may be (although I am having trouble picturing it) but it is far from clear to me how this LRT will encourage that.

 

[doady]

There is? where?
View attachment 24174

Yeah, just a bunch of parking lots and strip malls and big box and greenfields. No development potential at all. And certainly the City of Brampton itself does not envision any future development there.

 

[khris]

Why don't they move the platforms for Port Credit and Cooksville closer to the streets? That would make a big difference for transfers.

 

[drum118]

Why don't they move the platforms for Port Credit and Cooksville closer to the streets? That would make a big difference for transfers.

Its one hand not knowing what the other is doing and working in different time zones.

Having following EA's since 2003, I can't recall where the big picture has come into play as how the EA will fit in to the big picture and allow for provisions for other EA's around it in the first place.

We Know the Milton Line is going to be upgraded to 4 tracks with the 2nd GO track being on the north side of the current platform and the 2nd CP on the south side. To use the new walkway bridge and gain access to the current platform, you will have to use the 2 tunnels since the current walkway from the street will be removed. Very hard to put a stair in from the street to the platform since the sidewalk is in the tunnel underpass. The platform is by the street for Cooksville.

As for PC, the whole station and platform can be shifted to the east after the new underpass tunnel to the west of the current bridge is built. There is a creek running west of the LRT that will see a tall retaining wall built along it to prevent the 100 year flood water washing on to the tracks as well the underpass. Since 23, 8 and 14 will be the only buses servicing PC, a new terminal could be built on the old Lawn Bowling lands on the south side of the stop to deal with the long walk to the current one. That was brought up years ago at the stakeholders meetings.

Up in Brampton, a new bridge has to be built on the north side of the existing one for the new 3rd track to be built there as well moving the current station north as proposed almost a decade ago. The current plan for the LRT stop will have to be shifted north and it was real funny how this design team has very understanding what has to take place there in the first place. Some where say station allow for this 3rd track and didn't realizes that moving the VIA station could not go where they though it would.

Overall, some of the team knew of the various changes for all 3 locations, most of them had no knowledge of them at all.

They have no understanding about a new Gateway Hub for Sq One to replace both current terminal and put them under one roof with tracks running through the platform for the BRT since it was not part of their mandate.

Its the same thing for the plan 407 transitway stop.

Going back to PC, the owners of the houses on the east will be up in arms if the loco's are shift to the east to allow platform shifting to the east, so it is closer to the LRT.

Another EA working in isolation with blind folders on.

 

[howl]

There is? where?
View attachment 24174



Agree.




That may be (although I am having trouble picturing it) but it is far from clear to me how this LRT will encourage that.

Shopper's World and south - There are already a number of redevelopment proposals in the works for the northeast and southeast quadrants of Steeles and Hurontario. Redevelopment of the Shopper's world site itself could result in a community of a couple of thousand people. Just south of Steeles, west of Hurontario there is still a huge greenfield area. Further south around Sir Lou all those parking lots and plazas could be redeveloped. Plus the big greenfield south of the courthouse.

Downtown - that redevelopment is already well underway. There are a number of new buildings in the downtown, and many more sites are being consolidated by developers. The LRT is required to move those people south to jobs along Hurontario and elsewhere in Mississauga. The alternative is to widen Hurontario to six lanes through the downtown area to Steeles so everyone can drive themselves to work.

 

[drum118]

The ROW for Mississauga Hurontario is set at 9 lanes in total and why everything is set back so far now. This was stated in an 1980's report I came across a decade ago. Since this is a Peel Rd, those 9 lanes will runs from Cooksvile CP Bridge to the Creek in Brampton on the current 7 lanes road. Having a highway to cross daily is totally unacceptable as well having it run through the heart of the city. You have to wait 3 minutes for a light to change today to the point you miss buses more than enough.

After the LRT is built when every it happens, you could go back to some of the areas where building are set back so far and built 3-6's buildings on that extra land.

One thing I did say years ago, you shift the plan LRT road to one side to gain more land to build on the other side with higher limit.

Mississauga Council has been ridged in forcing higher minimum limits on industrial land between 401 & 407 so they service the LRT better. Time will tell if this happens. I know Orlando one of the largest land owners has been shot down on a few development on Hurontario since they were going to be 1/2's high.

 

[howl]

The ROW for Mississauga Hurontario is set at 9 lanes in total and why everything is set back so far now. This was stated in an 1980's report I came across a decade ago. Since this is a Peel Rd, those 9 lanes will runs from Cooksvile CP Bridge to the Creek in Brampton on the current 7 lanes road. Having a highway to cross daily is totally unacceptable as well having it run through the heart of the city. You have to wait 3 minutes for a light to change today to the point you miss buses more than enough.

After the LRT is built when every it happens, you could go back to some of the areas where building are set back so far and built 3-6's buildings on that extra land.

One thing I did say years ago, you shift the plan LRT road to one side to gain more land to build on the other side with higher limit.

Mississauga Council has been ridged in forcing higher minimum limits on industrial land between 401 & 407 so they service the LRT better. Time will tell if this happens. I know Orlando one of the largest land owners has been shot down on a few development on Hurontario since they were going to be 1/2's high.

I suspect the 9 lane configuration was a hold over from the days before the 410 was built. Once the 410 was there to take the majority of intercity traffic Highway 10 was de-evolved to the Region. It is no longer a Provincial highway. It is just a regional arterial road. There is a chapter in the 2010 Masterplan for Hurontario Main Street that talks about further change that need to happen to the development along the corridor in order to make it a pedestrian and transit friendly street. http://lrt-mississauga.brampton.ca/EN/Master-Plan/Pages/Related-Documents.aspx (see Planning and Urban Design Framework chapter)

 

[TOareaFan]

Shopper's World and south - There are already a number of redevelopment proposals in the works for the northeast and southeast quadrants of Steeles and Hurontario.

The eastern corners of Steeles and Hurontario are both small, creek/parkland/golfcourse bounded sites that currently have single story, but leased, retail developments. I guess those could turn into something else....but what? What do you envision there? How much density/development can you see there?

But that is a small point that I wouldn't have bothered posting if I wasn't about to say:

Redevelopment of the Shopper's world site itself could result in a community of a couple of thousand people.

Just imagine how many people we could squeeze onto the site that is currently occupied by SQ1! Shopper's world is about 800k s.f. of retail with some major tenants on long term leases and owned by a company that happens to be in the business (actually the biggest in the business) of owning/operating Canadian retail centres. A company that, when faced with losing a major tenant (the Bay) at the north end of the mall (during the planning of this HMLRT) and looking at options for that space (which included rezoning for seniors housing, rental apartments, condo apartments, etc) chose the route that we now see....the de-malled the north end and built big furniture stores and restaurants. Faced with making the best economic use of their property, with an existing upgraded bus service and with this very LRT in the planning stages the smart guys at RioCan concluded "more retail".

You are right, this site could host a lot of dense residential development.....but it won't. It may see a bit of res around it's periphery (although I doubt this as well because the value of those residential developments would not only have be economical in their own right they would have to bear the cost of burying the parking for the retail space.

Just south of Steeles, west of Hurontario there is still a huge greenfield area.

Yes there is a large tract of land wrapping the south and west of the Great Canadian Superstore project.....until not very long ago (couple of years) it was still a working farm.....believe the plans are for low-medium density housing there....but, I guess, that could change.

Further south around Sir Lou all those parking lots and plazas could be redeveloped. Plus the big greenfield south of the courthouse.

There are two significant "parking lots" south of Sir Lou....one happens to be wrapped around the Police HQ so I doubt that is going anywhere....the other is the City South retail centre....a plaza that has had a mixed past (as you might expect when you launch a plaza as Zellers anchored) but has certainly stabilized......yes, it is the sort of land use that we can/will/should describe as sub optimal but, now that it is there, is it really going away? On a smaller scale it is a similar issue to Shopper's World.....is the value as something other than it is now significantly above its value as it is now as a retail centre....and is that pro forma increase in value (if any) enough to take on the re-development exercise/risk. My bet it is that this site is more likely to change....but far from a certainty.

What the Google map above does not show is that the greenspace south of the courthouse is now abut half of what is shown as Inzola has filled the south half with a 70,000 s.f. office building. Thing has been in the market for a while...marketing space in this quite attractive building has been ongoing for over a year......as of yesterday they were still offering up to 50,000 s.f.

The LRT is required to move those people south to jobs along Hurontario and elsewhere in Mississauga. The alternative is to widen Hurontario to six lanes through the downtown area to Steeles so everyone can drive themselves to work.

Just a tip When marketing the benefits to Brampton to people in Brampton....you might want to alter the pitch from "now that we have removed about 1 million s.f. of retail/employment lands we will need this LRT to get the people who used to work there, and the thousands of people who now live there, to their jobs in Mississauga"