doady
Senior Member
Weren't there more posts about the merits of the loop here? I think I even made a post opposing it recently. Did the posts get deleted? Or was that in a different thread? I don't remember.
howl
Active Member
Ya. I noticed that too. A whole bunch of posts got deleted from this thread. Someone is selectively editing it.
Silence&Motion
Senior Member
It's not just this thread. It seems like half a day's worth of posts were deleted from all the threads (or at least all the ones I follow closely enough to notice).
TOareaFan
Superstar
Hipster Duck
Senior Member
Back to the loop:
The loop wouldn't be such a bad idea if it was used to short turn every second northbound LRT. In essence, there would be LRVs that went from Port Credit to Brampton, via Hurontario, and LRVs that went from Port Credit to MCC, via the loop. You could also use the loop to run a downtown Mississauga circulator.
The loop wouldn't be such a bad idea if it was used to short turn every second northbound LRT. In essence, there would be LRVs that went from Port Credit to Brampton, via Hurontario, and LRVs that went from Port Credit to MCC, via the loop. You could also use the loop to run a downtown Mississauga circulator.
drum118
Superstar
Still wasting 10-15 minute traveling time like the 19's does today and servicing next to nothing doing so. The only time it will service the area will be when there is a special event taking place at the Celebration Square. Less than a dozen times a year at the best.
The south numbers out number the north at this time, but what is coming down the line will be almost equal at the end of the day.
A circulator loop will do nothing for the area other than a drain on the pocket book,
howl
Active Member
When was the last time you were west of Duke of York? They are starting construction of the second phase of the new Sheridan College campus this summer. Currently there are almost 3,000 students there and the second phase will add another 3,000. In addition there are currently there are about 35,000 people living in the "Downtown" neighbourhood, a good portion of them are west of Square One. The plan is to double that in over the next twenty years. Most of that new residential development will happen west of Square One. Office development will be concentrated to the east of Square One. So there could be close to 40,000 people living between Square One and Mary Fix Creek in twenty years. The LRT loop is intended to make all that new development transit-supportive.
Tuscani01
Senior Member
I also made a post supporting the loop.
Not going to re-type it all, but howl's post pretty much sums it up. MCC around the civic centre will become the most dense part of MCC, and having that easy access to transit will be a huge benefit for those living there. Not to mention Civic Centre, Central Library, LAC, and Sheridan are/have the potential to become huge trip generators. It would be a mistake to bypass this area just to shave some time off a trip for some (Which wont be the case, since not all trains will run along the loop), or to save a little money. We have the chance to serve this emerging neighbourhood now so lets do it now. Its a small extra cost that will be worth it in the end in terms of the type of development it will attract, and transit usage in that part of MCC.
Not going to re-type it all, but howl's post pretty much sums it up. MCC around the civic centre will become the most dense part of MCC, and having that easy access to transit will be a huge benefit for those living there. Not to mention Civic Centre, Central Library, LAC, and Sheridan are/have the potential to become huge trip generators. It would be a mistake to bypass this area just to shave some time off a trip for some (Which wont be the case, since not all trains will run along the loop), or to save a little money. We have the chance to serve this emerging neighbourhood now so lets do it now. Its a small extra cost that will be worth it in the end in terms of the type of development it will attract, and transit usage in that part of MCC.
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I'll re-add my two cents (rounded down to $0.00 now that the penny is gone) regarding the loop too:
I think that the loop service should be a supplementary route to the mainline service, which would stay on Hurontario the entire time. Mainline service runs from Brampton to Port Credit, with the occasional short-turn train to account for differences in ridership. The loop service would run from either Cooksville, Dundas, or Port Credit, around the MCC loop into the main transit terminal.
This would give anyone living or going to a place along the loop direct access to the transit terminal, Cooksville GO, the Dundas BRT, and/or even Port Credit GO, without inconveniencing the Hurontario LRT riders who just want to bypass MCC all-together and continue on their journey.
Best of both worlds, IMO. Not to mention that the MCC-Dundas stretch will likely be the busiest stretch on the entire Hurontario LRT route, so it makes sense to have a higher service level along that stretch, which the additional loop service would provide.
I think that the loop service should be a supplementary route to the mainline service, which would stay on Hurontario the entire time. Mainline service runs from Brampton to Port Credit, with the occasional short-turn train to account for differences in ridership. The loop service would run from either Cooksville, Dundas, or Port Credit, around the MCC loop into the main transit terminal.
This would give anyone living or going to a place along the loop direct access to the transit terminal, Cooksville GO, the Dundas BRT, and/or even Port Credit GO, without inconveniencing the Hurontario LRT riders who just want to bypass MCC all-together and continue on their journey.
Best of both worlds, IMO. Not to mention that the MCC-Dundas stretch will likely be the busiest stretch on the entire Hurontario LRT route, so it makes sense to have a higher service level along that stretch, which the additional loop service would provide.
drum118
Superstar
Oh a day or so ago. I also have shot all the buildings to the west for the last 8 years, so I know the area very well.
It faster to walk to Sheridan from the bus terminal than take transit. Bulk of riders for Sheridan is by GO or Brampton 502. If every 2nd car loops the the terminal, you will still have to walk to/from the terminal. Most students head to the mall after class and quicker to walk to it.
As for the condos, they are currently service by the 26, 28, 6, 91, 9, 61 & 20. Those going to the Mall will either drive or walk than take transit.
I have stated numerous time to council that I saw 180-250,000 people living and working in this area if the city doesn't keep thing low rise and Sq One Mall being rebuilt along the lines of Eaton Centre that has development on top of it.
What has not been discussed is a new transit hub and the location of one to handle 125,000+ since the current one was built for a city of 250,000 and 25,000 riders. It has been expanded that it support 50,000 today with GO Transit Terminal seeing 6,000 for a total of 56,000. That is only in the last 15 years with very little development until 6 years ago.
doady
Senior Member
Reasons why the loop is bad idea:
1. It will interfere with bus service throughout MCC.
2. It will divert transit away from potentially the busiest and densest section of the Hurontario corridor.
3. It will hurt office development along Hurontario in MCC, and office development is MCC's biggest weakness.
4. It will interfere with the BRT.
5. It will interfere with buses entering the City Centre Transit Terminal (CCTT).
6. 26 Burnhamthope loops around MCC in a similar manner, and 26 Burnhamthorpe's riderships drop off considerably west of CCTT such that MT was forced introduce the 76 to reduce the number of buses west of Square One. In fact, the Burnhamthorpe buses are less busy than both Dundas and Eglinton. The ridership isn't that great.
7. 74 City Centre Loop was canceled due to low ridership demand. And there was another shuttle service that was cancelled years before that.
8. The LRT doesn't need to connect to CCTT to connect with other MiWay buses. Most of MiWay buses serving CCTT already intersect with Hurontario itself.
9. The main purpose fo CCTT is for BRT/GO connection, and the LRT could connect with BRT/GO at City Centre/Rathburn instead of CCTT.
10. Increased wait/travel times for people who want to bypass MCC.
11. Splitting any transit route at the busiest and densest section of the route is just a dumb idea. Route branches should be for the least busy section, not the busiest.
1. It will interfere with bus service throughout MCC.
2. It will divert transit away from potentially the busiest and densest section of the Hurontario corridor.
3. It will hurt office development along Hurontario in MCC, and office development is MCC's biggest weakness.
4. It will interfere with the BRT.
5. It will interfere with buses entering the City Centre Transit Terminal (CCTT).
6. 26 Burnhamthope loops around MCC in a similar manner, and 26 Burnhamthorpe's riderships drop off considerably west of CCTT such that MT was forced introduce the 76 to reduce the number of buses west of Square One. In fact, the Burnhamthorpe buses are less busy than both Dundas and Eglinton. The ridership isn't that great.
7. 74 City Centre Loop was canceled due to low ridership demand. And there was another shuttle service that was cancelled years before that.
8. The LRT doesn't need to connect to CCTT to connect with other MiWay buses. Most of MiWay buses serving CCTT already intersect with Hurontario itself.
9. The main purpose fo CCTT is for BRT/GO connection, and the LRT could connect with BRT/GO at City Centre/Rathburn instead of CCTT.
10. Increased wait/travel times for people who want to bypass MCC.
11. Splitting any transit route at the busiest and densest section of the route is just a dumb idea. Route branches should be for the least busy section, not the busiest.
drum118
Superstar
A fair number of changes to the last plan was on display Wed,
The LRT stops at Peter St in Port Credit now on the west side. A hole will be punch under RR bridge with a high retaining wall beside the creek. Nice long walk to the bus terminal and the GO station.
North of the bridge, the tracks will swing back to the centre of the road.
At the QEW, both the LRT and the northbound lanes will be shifted east for a new underpass with right hand turning lanes getting onto the QEW for both direction.
The line will stay 100% on Hurontario in the centre as well going over the 403. The Y track from the loop will be north of Rathburn with the line on a skew toward Rathurn. It will run along the north side of Rathburn before going south on Duke of York. The Roundabout will be remove and replace with traffic lights. Rest of the line north of the 403 remains the same as before.
A fair number of people were calling for a full underground subway regardless the cost, but not willing to pickup the cost doing so.
The yard will hold 56 cars with an extra 2 track and will be fully enclosed.
They are looking at a P3 to build this line, but no one know at this time who is going to own, run and how long the P3 will last. Even buying the cars are open at this time.
If a P3 owns and operate the line, agreements will to be with all unions as what will happen to the drivers who get remove from the 19's, 103 and 502. Both cities needs to start looking at a timetable as to when driver are due to retire so extra staff is not hire to replace them and move the other drivers into their position.
Headway is supposed to be 5 south of Sq One and 5 minutes north with every other train by passing Sq One. Its still a mess at this time on the headway under the new model.
More to follow
The LRT stops at Peter St in Port Credit now on the west side. A hole will be punch under RR bridge with a high retaining wall beside the creek. Nice long walk to the bus terminal and the GO station.
North of the bridge, the tracks will swing back to the centre of the road.
At the QEW, both the LRT and the northbound lanes will be shifted east for a new underpass with right hand turning lanes getting onto the QEW for both direction.
The line will stay 100% on Hurontario in the centre as well going over the 403. The Y track from the loop will be north of Rathburn with the line on a skew toward Rathurn. It will run along the north side of Rathburn before going south on Duke of York. The Roundabout will be remove and replace with traffic lights. Rest of the line north of the 403 remains the same as before.
A fair number of people were calling for a full underground subway regardless the cost, but not willing to pickup the cost doing so.
The yard will hold 56 cars with an extra 2 track and will be fully enclosed.
They are looking at a P3 to build this line, but no one know at this time who is going to own, run and how long the P3 will last. Even buying the cars are open at this time.
If a P3 owns and operate the line, agreements will to be with all unions as what will happen to the drivers who get remove from the 19's, 103 and 502. Both cities needs to start looking at a timetable as to when driver are due to retire so extra staff is not hire to replace them and move the other drivers into their position.
Headway is supposed to be 5 south of Sq One and 5 minutes north with every other train by passing Sq One. Its still a mess at this time on the headway under the new model.
More to follow
CapCurk
New Member
Does anyone know the reasoning to go down Duke of York and not Living Arts Drive?
speedkar9
New Member
I went down to the Mississauga Hurontario LRT open house yesterday and have a few things to discuss from what I saw.
The connections at Cooksville and Port Credit GO don't seem like "connections" at all. Reminds me of the Bloor GO Station connection with Dundas West subway station.
For Port Credit, the train simply pulls up at the parking lot, forcing passengers to walk a long ways to the trains. I think a better connection could be made right under the bridge or perhaps the LRT aligning westward along side the corridor as proposed for Brampton GO station at the northern terminus.
Also at Cooksville GO, having passengers disembark and cross the street is a hassle. How about extending the LRT platform south toward the rail bridge and having a pair of escalators leading up the bridge and meet a new westward extension of the GO platforms?
In addition, I see no tail tracks, pocket tracks or spurs to temporary storage anywhere along the corridor. With the single maintenance facility way up by highway 407, it would take a long time to roll out trains in the morning especially near the southern extremities of the line. Not to mention what would happen if an LRV gets disabled midway.
Finally, the northern portion of the route is proposed to be a shared ROW with cars, eliminating street parking which I think is vital to the business and street scape on those last 2 km of the line. Furthermore, they will do away with overhead wires and run the LRV's on battery power - something I don't really seem feasible from an engineering perspective. Why would you design and build a battery powered LRV to run on a line that's 90% running from overhead wires? The battery weight and cost should be taken into consideration, along with a realignment of this part of the line or possibly tunneling.
I appreciate your discussion on my thoughts.
The connections at Cooksville and Port Credit GO don't seem like "connections" at all. Reminds me of the Bloor GO Station connection with Dundas West subway station.
For Port Credit, the train simply pulls up at the parking lot, forcing passengers to walk a long ways to the trains. I think a better connection could be made right under the bridge or perhaps the LRT aligning westward along side the corridor as proposed for Brampton GO station at the northern terminus.
Also at Cooksville GO, having passengers disembark and cross the street is a hassle. How about extending the LRT platform south toward the rail bridge and having a pair of escalators leading up the bridge and meet a new westward extension of the GO platforms?
In addition, I see no tail tracks, pocket tracks or spurs to temporary storage anywhere along the corridor. With the single maintenance facility way up by highway 407, it would take a long time to roll out trains in the morning especially near the southern extremities of the line. Not to mention what would happen if an LRV gets disabled midway.
Finally, the northern portion of the route is proposed to be a shared ROW with cars, eliminating street parking which I think is vital to the business and street scape on those last 2 km of the line. Furthermore, they will do away with overhead wires and run the LRV's on battery power - something I don't really seem feasible from an engineering perspective. Why would you design and build a battery powered LRV to run on a line that's 90% running from overhead wires? The battery weight and cost should be taken into consideration, along with a realignment of this part of the line or possibly tunneling.
I appreciate your discussion on my thoughts.
Attachments
Hipster Duck
Senior Member
I think the GO train station's platform should be moved east, rather than have the LRT station move north. As it is, the LRT terminus sort of is a middle ground between serving the commercial strip along Lake Shore and the GO station.
Agree in the long term. Provisions should be made, but it may be overkill to have a pedestrian bridge plus escalator starting from day one.
That's a good point. Most (maybe all?) LRT systems have pocket tracks fairly regularly in the system. That is a serious omission. Are there at least crossovers?
Agreed completely. A battery is just another heavy component that you need to buy and fix. The decision was probably based on aesthetics, but that's not worth it considering that it is probably going to be expensive and superfluous, that poles can be aesthetically pleasing and wires relatively hidden if you do it well, and that downtown Mississauga is not exactly an architectural treasure that requires such costly adjustments.