Toronto Dragon Condos | 37.49m | 10s | Ideal Developments | IBI Group

[balenciaga]

Oh gee please, i say leave chinatown alone...not everyone is happy mixing in with that clan of hipsters

could you explain why?

Shouldn't Chinatown be a desirable place to live?
Shouldn't Chinatown be clean and organized, with well kept buildings and sanitary restaurants and grocery stores?
Do you think those who actually live in/near Chinatown prefer its current condition?
Or do you think only messy and dirty represents the real identity of "Chinatown"?

I would assume all those who think Chinatown should stay the way it is probably believe that all the negative factors that make Chinatown less attractive are exactly the unique charm and identity of the area, and that any effort of gentrification or cleaning-up will take that away. I can assure you that this is entirely wrong.

Chinatown doesn't reflect by any means the prosperous Chinese cities nowadays. The Chinese don't like messiness, and dirtiness. They don't like dragon or panda signs as if these are quintessential "Chinese". They dislike shopping at $2 T-shirt shops or eat in gross and outdated restaurants. They frown at horribly maintained buildings and smelly grocery stores too. They like things nice, clean and beautiful, just like white Canadians do.

Chinatown should include heavy Chinese culture, but being dirty, messy and chaotic with newspapers flying in each corner is not one of them. The middle class Chinese can't tolerate them, just like middle class Canadians can't. The Chinese in Toronto if with an option will not live near Chinatown but all choose to move to Markham or Richmond Hill because they want to live in a better neighbourhood too. Don't we see that? The current Chinatown is nothing but an extremely outdated and dirty version of how Canadians perceive what China was or should be, not how China is or will be, nor a community the Chinese Canadians still cherish. The current Chinatown is simply stuck with how it was when the earliest batch of poor Chinese immigrants moved to Toronto and had their first community, it looked like that not because these people wanted it that way, but because they were poor and could only do this much. They had no intention of living like that forever, particularly for their offspring.

To say Chinatown should stay the way it is is like to say Regent Park should not change because looking seedy and poor is Regent Park's "identity", it is like saying the Chinese community in Toronto should absolutely look like a Chinese city when it was much much poorer 40 years ago. To be honest, Chinese cities look more like a much denser version of Markham than bearing any resemblance to Dundas/Spadina, and probably a present day village in China looks much nicer than that. In fact, because the Chinese got increasingly wealthier and demand more, while Chinatown never changed, the Chinese in Toronto visit Chinatown less and less. Nowadays it is more for the low income old generation Chinese who can't do better, or tourists who think it is what China is like.

I understand you probably want to protect Chinatown's identity and heritage. There are many ways to do that, to keep Chinatown updated with time, but what you suggested "leave Chinatown alone" is not the right way to go.

As to hipsters, why not? If the Chinese culture went hipster, there is no reason Chinatown can't reflect that. And I am sure in the end it will stay essentially "Chinese" and not something like Queen W or Yorkville. Trust me, the Chinese culture is much much stronger than the Canadian culture, and even if changes are made and area are improved, you will still see heavy but more authentic and real Chinese elements.

 

[ptbotrmpfn]

the coloring is awful.. the design is very nice though
.jmo

 

[urbandreamer]

If the University of Toronto were smart, they'd be buying up the Spadina strip north of Dundas. Future campus buildings, student residences and rental apartment buildings would protect its long term land supply issues.

Kensingon Market is filled with UofT hipsters anyway--why not extend it?

 

[ProjectEnd]

could you explain why?

Shouldn't Chinatown be a desirable place to live?
Shouldn't Chinatown be clean and organized, with well kept buildings and sanitary restaurants and grocery stores?
Do you think those who actually live in/near Chinatown prefer its current condition?
Or do you think only messy and dirty represents the real identity of "Chinatown"?

I would assume all those who think Chinatown should stay the way it is probably believe that all the negative factors that make Chinatown less attractive are exactly the unique charm and identity of the area, and that any effort of gentrification or cleaning-up will take that away. I can assure you that this is entirely wrong.

Chinatown doesn't reflect by any means the prosperous Chinese cities nowadays. The Chinese don't like messiness, and dirtiness. They don't like dragon or panda signs as if these are quintessential "Chinese". They dislike shopping at $2 T-shirt shops or eat in gross and outdated restaurants. They frown at horribly maintained buildings and smelly grocery stores too. They like things nice, clean and beautiful, just like white Canadians do.

Chinatown should include heavy Chinese culture, but being dirty, messy and chaotic with newspapers flying in each corner is not one of them. The middle class Chinese can't tolerate them, just like middle class Canadians can't. The Chinese in Toronto if with an option will not live near Chinatown but all choose to move to Markham or Richmond Hill because they want to live in a better neighbourhood too. Don't we see that? The current Chinatown is nothing but an extremely outdated and dirty version of how Canadians perceive what China was or should be, not how China is or will be, nor a community the Chinese Canadians still cherish. The current Chinatown is simply stuck with how it was when the earliest batch of poor Chinese immigrants moved to Toronto and had their first community, it looked like that not because these people wanted it that way, but because they were poor and could only do this much. They had no intention of living like that forever, particularly for their offspring.

To say Chinatown should stay the way it is is like to say Regent Park should not change because looking seedy and poor is Regent Park's "identity", it is like saying the Chinese community in Toronto should absolutely look like a Chinese city when it was much much poorer 40 years ago. To be honest, Chinese cities look more like a much denser version of Markham than bearing any resemblance to Dundas/Spadina, and probably a present day village in China looks much nicer than that. In fact, because the Chinese got increasingly wealthier and demand more, while Chinatown never changed, the Chinese in Toronto visit Chinatown less and less. Nowadays it is more for the low income old generation Chinese who can't do better, or tourists who think it is what China is like.

I understand you probably want to protect Chinatown's identity and heritage. There are many ways to do that, to keep Chinatown updated with time, but what you suggested "leave Chinatown alone" is not the right way to go.

As to hipsters, why not? If the Chinese culture went hipster, there is no reason Chinatown can't reflect that. And I am sure in the end it will stay essentially "Chinese" and not something like Queen W or Yorkville. Trust me, the Chinese culture is much much stronger than the Canadian culture, and even if changes are made and area are improved, you will still see heavy but more authentic and real Chinese elements.

The utter and absolute myopia upon which this silly, long-winded and fundamentally incorrect assessment of Chinese urbanism (and Chinese urban culture more broadly) is based makes an intelligible response a futile effort. In effect though, you're wrong.

 

[balenciaga]

The utter and absolute myopia upon which this silly, long-winded and fundamentally incorrect assessment of Chinese urbanism (and Chinese urban culture more broadly) is based makes an intelligible response a futile effort. In effect though, you're wrong.

sure. I am wrong because you said so. Exactly how many Chinese friends do you have and how much do you know about Chinese culture?

Let's keep all the street trash and tacky stores in Chinatown, because a bunch of Canadians who have never seen China think this is what Chinatown should look like (they themselves would never for a second think of living anywhere close to it though) and that this ridiculously outdated neighbourhood represents "diversity". Honestly it is not even Chinatown, more like Cantontown, as 95% of the population speak Cantonese, which in China only 8% actually speak or even understand it.

 

[agoraflaneur]

In effect, Balenciaga is uncomfortable with Chinatown's current state because it doesn't reflect his own wishes for China and unfortunately mirrors its perception in many people's minds. I have many Chinese friends and work with Chinese people (who comprise the majority in my workplace), most of whom are recently arrived or immigrants. They share his feelings, of course - no one wants to be seen this way if their ideal is for a "clean" polished urban fabric, which he is right many people in China aspire to.

Unfortunately for him, much of China is in no such state, and in many, many cases much, much worse. Of course there is also the shiny contemporary China I am sure he wishes people would only see; but, after being to China four months ago, I can sadly relate the situation much of China is in - as well as relate the beauty of some of its contemporary showpiece architecture.

However, as we debate the issue, I would ask us to imagine people seeing a "Canadiantown" as a rather ramshackle place, a la - on the horrendous side - "the Beer Store" or - on the more sanguine - a run down Queen West from the 80s. Some of us here would stongly decry the beer store, likely the vast majority, while others would celebrate its diversity in the urban fabric. What is likely is that we would all be uncomfortable with something representing us that we don't like. (Here think the Queen, hockey, totem poles, maples leaves, beavers, etc. etc. - how many are comfortable with these?)

It all boils down to subjective aesthetics, not the definition of a culture. But this is the crux: architecture can define a culture, indeed does define a culture as icon and totem. This is what we are arguing over here: differing perceptions of culture, and the ideological aesthetics of city-building. So that is what motivates Balenciaga: China's transformation should be mirrored everywhere in his mind, like a mushrooming of some French villa as the exemplification of France - instead of the transmission of Frenchness through cramped and dirty medieval quarters.

Whether it is Chinatown or Kensington or Lesilieville, there will always be those who favour a sterile, clean modernism and those who prefer the messy, dynamic urbanism of Jane Jacobs. Let's not forget the cultural element, however, and be sympathetic to a culture that is emerging from an incredibly difficult and sad time in its history, with a representational entity - Chinatown - that has claim over its identity. The Chinese are proud, and many are incredibly creative and stylish people; there are also many who want to show it on the world stage, as at home, which is great. But, let's not mistake pride for aesthetics. I personally would love to see more innovative Chinese businesses - and business/property owners - take a dynamic stand in Chinatown, building and improving with the savvy and sophistication many Chinese people demonstrate, though without completely erasing its current state as a cultural amenity and destination with historic character.

Others would prefer to bulldoze the entire thing, starting from scratch to erase what can be seen as a painful history. In China, there is a strong penchant for the latter. Indeed, Canadians do the same thing - Regent Park's and Liberty Village's transformations can be viewed through this lens.

 

[balenciaga]

I personally would love to see more innovative Chinese businesses - and business/property owners - take a dynamic stand in Chinatown, building and improving with the savvy and sophistication many Chinese people demonstrate, though without completely erasing its current state as a cultural amenity and destination with historic character.

Great suggestion but how can that be possible when Chinatown is associated with dirty, cheap and low income? Why would business want to invest there without decent improvement?

The truth is, mid to high income Chinese Canadians don't want to associate with Chinatown. The rest Canadians hardly want to live anywhere close to it themselves (but prefer others living there just to keep it "vibrant"). How can that work?

You are quite right that even in present China, there are many parts of the country that are poor. However, I still fail to see why the Chinese community of Canada's largest city has to mirror that instead of the better part of China. Poverty and chaos are not culture, they are simply garbage. I am not proposing a Bay st like sterile Chinatown. What I have argued for is that Chinatown can be clean, organized and pleasant to the eyes (with nice buildings and trees etc) yet at the same time remain its cultural identity, to be once again an attractive place for both the Chinese and other ethnicities, to be a more livable neighbourhood. I honestly don't know why is wrong with that.

Look around Chinatown, not just the retailers are in bad shape, all these residential houses on the side streets are very poorly maintained, with nothing but wild grass growing on the lawn, because their owners hardly live there. Most of the houses are rentals with 5-10 students living inside, so the owners don't even bother keep the houses and streets in good shape. Many houses are infested with bedbugs, cockcroaches and rats because the owners don't care as they don't live their. Is this really a neighourhood we want to build?

The fact that middle class Chinese Canadians don't even want to shop or live near Chinatown, and that only budget-tight students and low income population frequent it means the area is failing, and yet we deny the need for change or improvement, but rather advocate that this is exactly what Chinatown should look like. I don't know whether it is an insult to the Chinese or Toronto as a city.

 

[agoraflaneur]

Hmm, not sure where to even start with this post. First, I would say that Balenciaga's goal of an improved Chinatown should be everyone's goal. If it were up to me there would be a district plan designed by the city in conjunction with the community. I think the essential point is that it is incredibly difficult to modernize something while maintaining its character, and that point might be difficult to understand properly.

The point about businesses must be separated from the point about the side streets and neighbourhood, but the problem with both can be summarized by your suggestion that the owners don't seem to care very much. They seem to care only about money and not aesthetics (not realizing the one can lead to the other). I know, as a graduate student at the U of T I lived in a Chinese-owned house just off of Huron. Certainly my house wasn't infested with bugs, but the area is plagued by rats and the houses are (almost always illegally) divided into overly small units. I actually loved living in the area, and shopping in Chinatown. This area has some of the more beautiful houses in the city, and people are moving back into the area, fixing up the houses and returning them to their past glory. It has fantastic trees and is already ordered pretty well - though that doesn't go for the business area, alas, and a few streets are worse than others.

Then there is the suggestion that poverty and chaos are garbage. This is flat out wrong - so profoundly wrong I don't know if I could argue against it, other than to say much of the greatest cultural achievements of humanity arose out of poverty, including virtually all world religions and a significant portion of music, art, and literature. Poverty is part of a culture. Not many of humanity's greatest cultural giants were wealthy, though of course some wealth is required to create.

In the end I think that middle class people would want to go here a lot more if there were just a few more businesses catering to them. That is where things should move toward I think, and that is where the creativity of the people who are able to be there could build something better. It isn't too far away now, in my view. I don't think our views are fundamentally different. Chinatown, as a symbol, should represent all it can.

 

[Torontovibe]

There is absolutely no reason why ALL property owners shouldn't be expected to maintain their properties and keep them clean. (inside & outside of Chinatown) I have never seen a Chinatown in a North American city, that is as neglected as ours. If they can maintain reasonably clean Chinatowns in New York, San Francisco, Vancouver and Chicago, they can do it in Toronto too. I have been to all those Chinatowns and they are all in much better shape than our Chinatown. Why is it that so many Torontonians are willing to accept neglected neighbourhoods and a pathetic public realm? We have out of control postering in parts of the downtown core, ugly, over-head wires in the worst places and poles that look like they're ready to keel over, yet so many people are quick to defend it. Do they just figure that we're not worthy of anything better or is that frontier town look just so ingrained in people's heads, that they can't see Toronto in any other way? I really think people need to raise their standards. Maybe it's time for this ugly duckling to make its transformation and clean up a few of those rough edges .

 

[balenciaga]

We have out of control postering in parts of the downtown core, ugly, over-head wires in the worst places and poles that look like they're ready to keel over, yet so many people are quick to defend it.

I noticed it too and consider it a worse problem than dilapidating buildings. Some people almost always defend something obviously wrong and hideous just because it is in Toronto, their home-town or something.

Bad tacky retail on Yonge st, they think it is vibrant and interesting. Shouldn't change it.
Ugly overhead wire poles, they think it is uniquely Toronto and should stay.
Shabby small and nondescript houses occupying much of downtown land, they think it is "character"
Dirty and messy Chinatown, they think it represents culture and tradition and no change is needed.
Subpar waterfront design and planning, they think it works even better than Chicago's.
Of course a smelly sugar refinery and a giant ugly armoury should sit in the middle of downtown as well. We just love them.

If these happened in another city for example in America, they wouldn't argue as such.
This "things are fine as they are""This should not go anywhere" kind of home bias is more detrimental to the poor urban planning. I wish people could for one minute abandon their home bias and emotional attachment (I have seen this since I was 13 etc) and view things more objectively and be less protective of what is apparently wrong. Rather think about this, if it were located in Chicago or Boston, do you still think they should stay as they are?

 

[interchange42]

There's a hat trick of generalizing going on here.

This grass is greener everywhere else generalizing is empty. There are lots of rundown areas in Boston, and miles of it in Chicago, and those are two of the US's best cities.

The generalizing that everything in Chinatown is crappy and that there's no new investment, is not true.

And then there's the general "this needs to be fixed". Who by Balenciaga? What are you suggesting exactly? Comparing Chinatown with Regent Park is inappropriate: what's coming down there and being replaced is all through one ownership, whereas in Chinatown you have thousands of owners. Alexandra Park, on Chinatown's western edge, is more like Regent Park, and it's about to get the same treatment. That area will be revitalized substantially.

42

 

[metroTO]

I think Yonge Street would be a better comparison to Chinatown.
They are pretty similar, however Yonge Street is starting to see signs of improvement though unfortunately it resulted in over commercialism and the spawning of a mass of high-rise condos.

Location-wise Chinatown is centrally located in between many vibrant and desirable areas such as Queen West/King West/Entertainment District to the south, Annex to the north, U of T to the northeast. So I see Chinatown having huge potential.
I believe there is a height restriction on parts of Spadina so luckily we will most likely not see any 50- or 60-storey condo towers. I would love to see loft apartments or flats built above ground floor retail, a modern update to what we have currently. I wouldn't mind living in a place like that.

I must admit that Chinatown is an embarrassment considering it gets a lot of tourists. It doesn't compare to Chinatowns in other cities.

 

[ProjectEnd]

I noticed it too and consider it a worse problem than dilapidating buildings. Some people almost always defend something obviously wrong and hideous just because it is in Toronto, their home-town or something.

Bad tacky retail on Yonge st, they think it is vibrant and interesting. Shouldn't change it.
Ugly overhead wire poles, they think it is uniquely Toronto and should stay.
Shabby small and nondescript houses occupying much of downtown land, they think it is "character"
Dirty and messy Chinatown, they think it represents culture and tradition and no change is needed.
Subpar waterfront design and planning, they think it works even better than Chicago's.
Of course a smelly sugar refinery and a giant ugly armoury should sit in the middle of downtown as well. We just love them.

If these happened in another city for example in America, they wouldn't argue as such.
This "things are fine as they are""This should not go anywhere" kind of home bias is more detrimental to the poor urban planning. I wish people could for one minute abandon their home bias and emotional attachment (I have seen this since I was 13 etc) and view things more objectively and be less protective of what is apparently wrong. Rather think about this, if it were located in Chicago or Boston, do you still think they should stay as they are?

Oh boy. However, I am reminded of a few posts you made in the Scientology Building reclad thread:

You're right.

Reading list Number 1:

Let's discuss!

+1

I am kind of sick of the speech tyranny displayed by certain arrogrant members here who can't tolerate any different opinions about what is good and what is not. We should be less lenient about their personal attacks despite the amount of previous contribution to the forum or any personal acquaintance level. Members shouldn't be deterred from expressing their own opinions toward all matters, let it be considered stupid or tasteless. This is a public forum, not an expert panel.

I am sure educating them would be more effective than naming calling.
Will you call your children/friends "idiots" when they out of the lack of knowledge in certain field make senseless comments?
Plus just to express the desire of more color is legitimate as well. Not being an architecture doesn't mean one can't comment on buildings. How many of us here are professional architects who have ever designed a building anyway.

So let me get this straight: you're blind adherence to a single vision of what Chinatown 'should be' is completely acceptable and anyone (who may, nay, does know more about Chinese urbanity) arguing for a different picture is simply "defend[ing] something obviously wrong and hideous just because it is in Toronto." Yet when you're engaged in a constructive discussion (with pictures) about the future of one of our better mid-century office buildings you claim to have been brow beaten by 'arrogant' 'speech tyran[ists]' who "can't tolerate any different opinions about what is good and what is not." Surely you can see your own hypocrisy here, no?

Furthermore, you can see why I'm discouraged from crafting a post which attempts to break down the complexities of Chinese cities as I'm sure you either won't read it or won't admit that there are indeed deeper cultural forces which inform the 'messy' character of Chinatown. In this sense, if it were just a simple misunderstanding of the importance of cacophony and impermanence in Chinese city-building, it would be fun and interesting to share some of my own insight into the issue. As it seems you just have an axe to grind however, I don't see the value (but by all means, prove me wrong!).

 

[SP!RE]

If Chinatown were cleaned up from what it is now, I feel like it would be sterile and boring. That said, maybe there is a happy medium found in Chinatowns in cities like Chicago. But neighbourhood are organic creatures... it's all just theoretical talk if we want to improve Chinatown's "dirty" businesses since those businesses will generally evolve on their own terms.

 

[Soho]

The Spadina-Queen-Beverley-Dundas block has been my 'hood since 1995. The housing stock in this block runs the gamut from 'tear down' single story to a new monster home, but evolution in such an old neighbourhood is very slow. As Spire states, neighbourhoods are organic creatures and change at their own pace, but change they will. As the wall of condos south of Queen gets occupied in the next few years and introduces a flood of new residents to the neighbourhood this change will accelerate. That's bound to include the retail on Dundas and Spadina. Property values continue to rise, rents go up, long term owners sell and a rejuvenated Chinatown will ensue. Let's see what this does to 'messy' Chinatown in five years.