Toronto Dragon Condos | 37.49m | 10s | Ideal Developments | IBI Group

The real problem with Chinatown is that retailers show little to no respect for the buildings they occupy and public realm in general. The exact same stores but with more tactful (though equally 'chinese') storefronts would be an enormous improvement.

Minimal regulations can deliver storefronts like this:

https://maps.google.ca/maps?q=China...d=Hif3_UJf1DfqNOnOgh3TBQ&cbp=12,52.19,,0,7.81

Current signage in Toronto's Chinatown is car centric and difficult to read for pedestrians and transit users anyway. Since the vast majority of customers arrive to Chinatown by foot or streetcar, it would also be good for business to prioritise the pedestrian public realm.
 
RC8 said:
Minimal regulations can deliver storefronts like this:
Click to expand...

Pretty, but sterile. (Though it looks like Google took their shots at the crack of dawn, before there was anyone around to mess up the joint.) Any Chinatown that I've been to (NYC, Vancouver, SF, etc) are more like ours than London's - they're messy as heck, and that disorganization, near-chaos and ad-hoc nature is precisely the point and the charm. (Regulating 'nice' signage and storefronts might have a chilling effect on some of the smaller businesses that run on shoe-string budgets, as well.)
 
adHominem said:
Pretty, but sterile. (Though it looks like Google took their shots at the crack of dawn, before there was anyone around to mess up the joint.) Any Chinatown that I've been to (NYC, Vancouver, SF, etc) are more like ours than London's - they're messy as heck, and that disorganization, near-chaos and ad-hoc nature is precisely the point and the charm. (Regulating 'nice' signage and storefronts might have a chilling effect on some of the smaller businesses that run on shoe-string budgets, as well.)
Click to expand...

OK, if it is the point and charm, do you envision your family living there? Do you prefer living in this charm neighbourhood or a clean and sterile kind of hood personally? Do you usually shop at those disorganized and dirty shops or something clean and organized as Loblaw's or Sobey's?
Chinatown is a neighbourhood where people actually live. It is not a theme park or museum which people only visit for fun. If you have trouble living there, why do you think it should stay unchanged, why do you think locals should live like that?

My point is, no matter what charm or character you believe a neighbourhood should look like, it should be nice enough so that you and your family would want to live there. This "I like its unique difference and charm but just don't want to deal with it in my everyday life" kind of thinking is selfish and wrong.
 
I have not noticed there being a problem with depopulation in Chinatown. It seems people do enjoy living in the area. That said, nobody wants to live in unhealthy conditions, and any part of a city that is dealing with rats or other infestations would be better off without them, but that does not necessarily mean replacing all of the building stock with condo monoculture to achieve that. Most people do not want the whole city to become malled and chain stored. 98% of what goes into the (usually charmless) retail space in the bottom of condos is corporate currently. We have got to figure out ways of making it easier to independents to flourish in such situations (incubation programs run by BIAs?), and we probably need regulations to inhibit the length of storefronts in pedestrian shopping areas (sliding scale for property tax rate depending on the length of the street frontage at ground level?). Who knows; there are others far more expert than I am in this area, but I cannot believe that some creative thinking couldn't improve our future streetscapes.

42
 
balenciaga said:
OK, if it is the point and charm, do you envision your family living there? Do you prefer living in this charm neighbourhood or a clean and sterile kind of hood personally? Do you usually shop at those disorganized and dirty shops or something clean and organized as Loblaw's or Sobey's?
Chinatown is a neighbourhood where people actually live. It is not a theme park or museum which people only visit for fun. If you have trouble living there, why do you think it should stay unchanged, why do you think locals should live like that?

My point is, no matter what charm or character you believe a neighbourhood should look like, it should be nice enough so that you and your family would want to live there. This "I like its unique difference and charm but just don't want to deal with it in my everyday life" kind of thinking is selfish and wrong.
Click to expand...

I actually did live in Chinatown, for six or seven years. I'd move back in a heartbeat, as would my partner. And yes, I much prefer shopping in disorganized and 'dirty' stores to Loblaws - for one, you're putting money in the local (super-local) economy, instead of feeding a chain; for another, more indie shops of all stripes helps consumer choice more than a corporate monoculture. But please, continue to make assumptions about me.

Your 'theme park' argument is extremely interesting! My first thought upon seeing the Google Streetview of London's Chinatown was that it was the theme park, because it was so 'nice'. I'm not sure why it's so hard for many folks on this board to imagine that a person would value 'interesting' over 'nice'.
 
balenciaga said:
OK, if it is the point and charm, do you envision your family living there? Do you prefer living in this charm neighbourhood or a clean and sterile kind of hood personally? Do you usually shop at those disorganized and dirty shops or something clean and organized as Loblaw's or Sobey's?
Chinatown is a neighbourhood where people actually live. It is not a theme park or museum which people only visit for fun. If you have trouble living there, why do you think it should stay unchanged, why do you think locals should live like that?

My point is, no matter what charm or character you believe a neighbourhood should look like, it should be nice enough so that you and your family would want to live there. This "I like its unique difference and charm but just don't want to deal with it in my everyday life" kind of thinking is selfish and wrong.
Click to expand...

Where would I rather live? It's not even a question.

The-Truman-Show-jim-carrey-141572_1024_768.jpg


HKG%20Hong%20Kong%20Advertising.jpg
 
interchange42 said:
I have not noticed there being a problem with depopulation in Chinatown. It seems people do enjoy living in the area. That said, nobody wants to live in unhealthy conditions, and any part of a city that is dealing with rats or other infestations would be better off without them, but that does not necessarily mean replacing all of the building stock with condo monoculture to achieve that. Most people do not want the whole city to become malled and chain stored. 98% of what goes into the (usually charmless) retail space in the bottom of condos is corporate currently. We have got to figure out ways of making it easier to independents to flourish in such situations (incubation programs run by BIAs?), and we probably need regulations to inhibit the length of storefronts in pedestrian shopping areas (sliding scale for property tax rate depending on the length of the street frontage at ground level?). Who knows; there are others far more expert than I am in this area, but I cannot believe that some creative thinking couldn't improve our future streetscapes.

42
Click to expand...

42, I never suggested that local stores should be replaced with chains, or that old buildings should give place to glass condos. And I hate large malls too, especiall downtown.

What I meant was, Chinatown currently is in bad shape. It is not a desirable destination for middle class folks to live and shop. This is undeniable. It is dirty, messy and too many buildings are in horrible condition. It desperately needs improvement, "cleaning-up" and more upkeep work. This doesn't imply making it look like Bay St or University Ave.

There is no necesary correlation between dirty/chaos and Chinatown. Being dirty and messy is not part of the charm of Chinatown and it doesn't make Chinatown "interesting" either. Having great and affordable Chinese bakery is interesting. Having exotic but clean Chinese restaurants is interesting. Having all sorts of culture events is interesting. $2 a piece T-shirt stores blocking the sidewalk on Spadina are not interesting. Unsanitary seafood restaurants with gross kitchen are not interesting. Crumbling buildings which haven't been maintained for 40 years are not interesting.

Yes, Chinatown can be nice and interesting. I don't know why some people insist these two are mutually exclusive.

You said "people do enjoy living in the area". How do we know? Judging by the income level, it seems only lower income people enjoy living in the area, and they probably do because that's what they can afford, or because they don't speak much English and this is the only area they can survive. If people do enjoy living near Chinatown, how come the average household income is much lower? how come the new Chinese generation immediately move to Markham or Richmond Hill the minute they have a white collar job and can afford a middle class lifestyle?

Population didn't drop, probably because the increasing enrolment of UofT, especially of Chinese students in the past 10 years? Honestly, how many of Toronto's middle class families really live in Chinatown? How many of the office workers at the financial district actually live in Chinatown? This issue is moot.
 
I've passed through Chinatown several times a week every week for years. There's plenty of good retail, nice people, and a nice overall vibe around it. None of it comes from the tasteless signage, as far as I'm concerned.

Signage works like an arms race. If you have 2 shops with gigantic ads each one gets the same amount of attention as if you had those same 2 shops with tactfully designed storefronts. The psychologically draining ads all over the place are needed only because there are other similar ones around every building. Minimum regulations can reduce the clutter without taking away from the businesses in question.

Chinatown is an area without any love for itself. Instead of striving to fulfil its potential in one of Toronto's most central and accessible locations, it has remained one of the most stagnant and least dynamic communities in the city. While The Annex, Queen West, West Queen West, Harbord Village, King West, Dundas West, etc. have all come leaps and bounds over the past 5 years, Chinatown is exactly where it was 10 years ago. Most of its patrons act like they'd rather not be in Toronto at all.
 
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Was just at the sales center. This is what I learned:
- project is 86pc sold since launching in Nov
- available 1br on 2nd floor (556sf) is $341,900 and on PH level (541sf) is $351,900
- parking costs $49,000
- layout is not the best as units are slender
- if you're on the 7th floor facing south you could probably get an unobstructed view all the way to Cityplace

This is one pricey project imo for the area.

And the previous comment on the salesperson barely able to speak English is inaccurate. I find her quite proficient.
 
TOBoy said:
Was just at the sales center. This is what I learned:
- project is 86pc sold since launching in Nov
- available 1br on 2nd floor (556sf) is $341,900 and on PH level (541sf) is $351,900
- parking costs $49,000
- layout is not the best as units are slender
- if you're on the 7th floor facing south you could probably get an unobstructed view all the way to Cityplace

This is one pricey project imo for the area.

And the previous comment on the salesperson barely able to speak English is inaccurate. I find her quite proficient.
Click to expand...


This project is not 85 per cent sold from what I know. Who told you it was? (I just want to see where you got your info to compare it to mine).

The pricing was WAY too high.
 
So what are the true current sales?
 
Pho 88, the restaurant on the ground floor of the existing building, closed shop a few weeks ago.
 
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