Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[kd86]

I may be dreaming but I hope when JOHN TORY WINS common-sense will prevail and perhaps the money used for that cash-pit you call the Scarborough subway extension will be transferred over to Eglinton; that way the line can be fully grade separated. Of course this is all wishful thinking as transit planning in Toronto has become so skewed and polluted with ill informed decisions, the status quo is likely to happen.
Thanks David Miller, Rob Ford and Karen Stintz, this is largely your fault.

 

[ksun]

I don't disagree on your point about half empty trains, which is why I cringe whenever I use the Sheppard line. But being left on the platform is not something to be happy about either. Try asking the average person how much they enjoy their bus and subway commute every day. Worst of all, the city is not building nearly enough transit as it should be, so things will only get worse.

I am not wanting crowdedness for the sake it.
What I am suggesting is, those folks who will use the LRT didn't come from thin air. They are residents of GTA and most of them are using the buses to get to work anywhere. There is no incremental passengers created by the LRT.
I think it is a better experience for them to take the Eglinton LRT than whatever buses they take now everyday.

 

[BurlOak]

Yup, right now that's my biggest issue with the Eglinton LRT proposal as-is. Don Mills is already a planned N-S rapid transit corridor (with the proposed LRT), and it will likely end up being the eventual terminus of the DRL as well. It makes no sense to have the short turn a couple stops short of that. It would be like short-turning half of the SRT trains at Midland.

The current design of Eglinton and the short-turn at Laird probably means that the DRL will not be built, and that the B-D subway will be built for $1.5B extra.

Without the ECLRT bringing huge numbers of people to the DRL, it will not be built to Eglinton. Also, the Flemingdon and Thorncliffe areas do not have the political clout to get the DRL build north of Eglinton. Then the question will come up on why build the DRL to Pape if GO REX type service would serve more people for less money.

I also think Andrewpmk is wrong that the ECLRT will be overcrowded. The current design will do little to encourage car drivers to switch to TTC, so the number of riders will not be huge. Also, the discontinuous nature of the line will ensure that it will not be used to what should be its full potential.

I could also relieve the Y-B interchange as follows: The B-D goes from Kennedy (or STC) to Main, there people are forced onto buses to go to Broadview, then the subways continue from there westward. (i.e. simply decommission a part of the existing subway). This was people will transfer onto GO (with integrated fares) and relieve Y-B. Essentially, this is what was done to Eglinton to make the on-street portion workable.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

This is why putting LRT on Eglinton is such a bad idea. A developer wants to tear down the Celestica building at Eglinton/Don Mills and replace it with thousands of condo units. http://www.blogto.com/city/2014/08/crosstown_lrt_spurs_massive_redevelopment_proposal/ It looks like Celestica will move to new buildings which occupy the eastern end of the site rather than moving to somewhere else in the GTA.

My guess is the Real Canadian Superstore will get redeveloped, as will the Ontario Science Centre parking lot, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints parking lot. There are probably also a few strip plazas and maybe some low rise office buildings that could be torn down to build more density. Expect tens of thousands of new residents at least once all these sites get redeveloped. This proposal alone says 2,897 units (claims they will be all 3 bedroom, seems rather unusual to me) which seems to suggest we will have about 10,000 people living in this development alone.

Has anyone at Metrolinx or TTC thought about what building massive condo developments will do to this line? My guess is that you will get several thousand new riders westbound during the peak hour of 8-9am on weekdays from a development of this size. Add in demand from the existing 20,000 or so residents of the Flemingdon Park area (who might walk or use bus 100), people transferring from bus routes 25 and 54, and people coming from further east and I have a suspicion that the LRT, if we don't change it to a subway now like we did with the Scarborough RT in the 1980s, and with no downtown relief line, will be overcrowded west of Don Mills, west in AM rush hour and east in PM rush hour. The inaccurate ridership projections that the Miller administration created are probably totally invalid if huge condo developments of this size get built, as I suspect that they assume that very little or no new development gets built along Eglinton and are totally invalid if that is not the case.

Don't count on the downtown relief line being built to deal with this problem because it is so expensive, so unlikely to get built anytime soon. Even if that does built, I'm not sure whether a new north south line will exactly mean that an east west line isn't still really busy, particularly in the long term. (The 401 is much busier than the Don Valley Parkway for instance).

I may be dreaming but I hope when JOHN TORY WINS common-sense will prevail and perhaps the money used for that cash-pit you call the Scarborough subway extension will be transferred over to Eglinton; that way the line can be fully grade separated. Of course this is all wishful thinking as transit planning in Toronto has become so skewed and polluted with ill informed decisions, the status quo is likely to happen.
Thanks David Miller, Rob Ford and Karen Stintz, this is largely your fault.

 

[ehlow]

well let's hope so, because the only people I see using that stop are joggers and dog walker, who may want to use the park.

What about people having their cars serviced at the Toyota dealership?

 

[gweed123]

until the line is complete Im going to believe that the leslie stop isn't happening.. I know that evidence is opposite but with the liberals winning the election I think they might reverse there decision again and use another mumbo jumbo excuse...

Even without a stop at Leslie, you still have the line going right through an intersection, meaning that the line wouldn't be completely grade-separated. The south side alignment had the final nail put in its coffin when the portal construction site was put in the middle of Eglinton.

 

[howl]

The TTC did a lousy job with these projections, they never really revealed where the numbers came from. I always suspect that when the politicians want LRT (e.g. Eglinton) they underestimate future development and when the politicians want subway (Vaughan subway) they rezone an undesirable industrial area at Jane/7 and claim that many tall buildings will be built, but the area is too undesirable to really be very successful. The other possible explanation is that in the case of Finch/Sheppard, the actual ridership really will be low because a slow LRT line with a transfer in the case of Sheppard is unattractive and most people will drive. This doesn't make sense for Eglinton which is as fast as a subway in the underground part.

To guesstimate projections ourselves it probably makes sense to look at Statistics Canada census tract data which shows where existing population lives in Toronto. You can also get statistics about how many jobs and square feet of office space exists in various parts of the GTA. We know that some fraction of the residents will take the LRT in the busiest hour of morning rush hour, which is what determines how overcrowded a line is. If 10000 people move to Don Mills/Eglinton in addition to about 20,000 existing residents and there is no DRL that probably translates into a few thousand more people using the LRT westbound during the peak hour. Others will use the LRT during other times of day, use the LRT eastbound in the morning towards Kennedy (probably not very many), take the bus, walk to one of the nearby office buildings or drive. Given how few parking spaces are planned in this development not many people will drive to work.

When where you last up at Vaughan centre? This building is almost complete: http://expocity.ca/ and it's just the first of dozens of new mixed use buildings that are in development.

There are people who have masters degrees and doctorates in transportation engineering and planning, land use planning and real estate economic who look at these things. The numbers they use are derived from the most reliable sources available and their projections are based on experience with similar projects around the world. That's why the City hires consultants. Believe me, all the stuff you are worried about was considered by the consultants way back when they did the initial EA. The reason LRT was selected rather than buses or subways was because the numbers said LRT was the most cost-effective and efficient mode for the number of people they are projecting will use it.

The redevelopment of sites like the Celestica property is not only anticipated, but is being encouraged. The GTA is growing at a predictable rate. That means they know roughly how many new people are coming to the GTA every year, and thus how many units they need to build to accommodate them. Every unit they build next to a major transit line is a unit they are not building out in Richmond Hill or Brampton. Putting 10,000 people at Don Mills and Eglinton reduces urban sprawl, reduces automobile usage, reduces infrastructure costs and makes the air cleaner. If they could put 20,000 people there it would be even better. It's developments like the Celestica one, and the ExpoCity in Vaughan that makes the GTA economically and environmentally sustainable.

 

[sixrings]

When where you last up at Vaughan centre? This building is almost complete: http://expocity.ca/ and it's just the first of dozens of new mixed use buildings that are in development.

There are people who have masters degrees and doctorates in transportation engineering and planning, land use planning and real estate economic who look at these things. The numbers they use are derived from the most reliable sources available and their projections are based on experience with similar projects around the world. That's why the City hires consultants. Believe me, all the stuff you are worried about was considered by the consultants way back when they did the initial EA. The reason LRT was selected rather than buses or subways was because the numbers said LRT was the most cost-effective and efficient mode for the number of people they are projecting will use it.

One, I may be in the minority but I believe in 30 years Vaughan Centre will have caught up to mississauga Centre. Despite having nothing there now besides expo, the subway will attract suburban people who want to live in a condo and the developers are going to feast off it.

Two, I am a bit confused why, if the drl gets to eglinton and don't mills, is it important that the Crosstown is all underground from Weston to Don mills? Do people believe that people living at bayview, mount pleasant, or Laird would have travelled esst to the drl to get downtown vs going west to yonge? I thought the drl getting to eglinton was more for the people coming from esst of Don mills. It sounds like people think there is going to be stuck technological problem with the design rather then they simply want the conveyance of having a drl end with some underground connection to a east bound smd west bound lrt as well as some possible underground connection to a northbound Don mills lrt.

 

[JayBeeGooner]

There are several people living in each unit remember? An average of 3 people per unit seems likely if this development has 3 bedroom units.

You have to guess how many people from this development will use the Eglinton line westbound from 8-9am on weekdays because this is the busiest hour. Others may use the line at other hours, use the line eastbound towards Kennedy in the morning, take bus route 25 or other buses, walk to work or drive. Does 2000 people in the peak hour seem realistic for about 10000 residents? People using the line off peak don't matter because hopefully the line won't be busy during these times.

Keep in mind there are around 20000 existing residents of this area already who will use this line, plus users of bus 25, 54 and 100 transferring. There will be some users of the LRT coming from further east but my guess it will be under capacity westbound east of Don Mills and severely overcrowded west of there. Assume no DRL is built.

Also keep in mind there are several other sites near Don Mills that are mostly parking that could hold thousands more residents if redeveloped as well.

Whenever I read your posts on here and Steve Munro's blog, I can't help but be impressed at how you come up with this stuff. Don't know why the TTC is spending money on highly educated engineers and planners, when they can just read your posts!

 

[innsertnamehere]

Vaughan centre will be fine. The KPMG building is going up right now as well, when the subway opens there will be 2 condo towers and an office building. A bunch of new buildings are going through approvals right now as well, and are getting ready to launch. I wouldn't be surprised if that by 2020 Vaughan centre is around 15 highrises.

 

[ehlow]

One, I may be in the minority but I believe in 30 years Vaughan Centre will have caught up to mississauga Centre. Despite having nothing there now besides expo, the subway will attract suburban people who want to live in a condo and the developers are going to feast off it.

Two, I am a bit confused why, if the drl gets to eglinton and don't mills, is it important that the Crosstown is all underground from Weston to Don mills? Do people believe that people living at bayview, mount pleasant, or Laird would have travelled esst to the drl to get downtown vs going west to yonge? I thought the drl getting to eglinton was more for the people coming from esst of Don mills. It sounds like people think there is going to be stuck technological problem with the design rather then they simply want the conveyance of having a drl end with some underground connection to a east bound smd west bound lrt as well as some possible underground connection to a northbound Don mills lrt.

Even if someone at Mt Pleasant or Bayview went to Don Mills.. it's not like one traffic light and some short turning vehicles will prevent it.

Yes, I would've preferred full grade separation to Don Mills, but I don't think it's as big of an issue as others.

 

[Transportfan]

One, I may be in the minority but I believe in 30 years Vaughan Centre will have caught up to mississauga Centre. Despite having nothing there now besides expo, the subway will attract suburban people who want to live in a condo and the developers are going to feast off it.

With the subway, it may catch up to MCC within 20. Even beyond the end of the line at Vaughan Mills, there are number of hotels already as well as several condo projects waiting for approval.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

By the way, the past few days has been busy around my block.

They closed down several side streets including Roehampton near Bayview, and have closed down several lanes on Eglinton at Bayview in order to relocate some underground utilities ahead of the construction of the Bayview headwalls.

 

[smallspy]

Even beyond the end of the line at Vaughan Mills, there are number of hotels already as well as several condo projects waiting for approval.

Virtually all of those hotels were built prior to the approval of the construction of the subway extension - I think two were built in the past 3 years.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[ehlow]

By the way, the past few days has been busy around my block.

They closed down several side streets including Roehampton near Bayview, and have closed down several lanes on Eglinton at Bayview in order to relocate some underground utilities ahead of the construction of the Bayview headwalls.

Yeah, lots of utility work happening.