Toronto Eglinton Line 5 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[andrewpmk]

As to crowdedness, people will handle it, just like people handle it just fine in Tokyo. Big cities are crowded, so what. Expect less personal space in the train and your back may be forced to press against some else's chest during rush hour, big deal. And if situation really becomes crippling, the government will be forced to make decisions they otherwise would be afraid to.

You actually think that it is good for Eglinton LRT to be so overcrowded that you have to wait for several trains to go by and you need pushers at Don Mills, Eglinton and Eglinton West stations like the Tokyo subway? The Tokyo subway has subway trains that are much longer than what are used in Toronto, and many parallel lines, and is still severely overcrowded because of the sheer population density of that city. The whole overcrowding problem on Eglinton would go away if we built a proper subway with higher capacity.

 

[ksun]

You actually think that it is good for Eglinton LRT to be so overcrowded that you have to wait for several trains to go by and you need pushers at Don Mills, Eglinton and Eglinton West stations like the Tokyo subway? The Tokyo subway has subway trains that are much longer than what are used in Toronto, and many parallel lines, and is still severely overcrowded because of the sheer population density of that city. The whole overcrowding problem on Eglinton would go away if we built a proper subway with higher capacity.

The crowdedness is exaggerated. At Yonge/Bloor people need to wait several trains for two primary reasons
1) Many passengers stand near the doors and refuse to move inside. A lot of times there is plenty of space in the middle of the train but the space just in in front of the doors are extremely congested creating the illusion of "no more space". People don't move inside for a variety of odd reasons.
2) many passengers are too polite / expect too much personal space in public transit. There are a few times I went with my coworkers to have a drink after work. I entered the crowded trains just by pushing the people at the front of the train, while they stood there feeling "It is too crowded and I will just wait for the next one". There has never been a single time I can't enter the first Yonge train during rush hours. YOU HAVE TO SQUEEZE IN. Forget courtesy completely.

Crowded subway train is a good thing. It means people are taking transit and the subway company is receiving payment. If during rush hour you can comfortably enter the trains and even have a seat occasionally, that means this line probably shouldn't have been built.

Of course like I said, TTC should stop building systems feeding to Yonge, or extend it. Building non-grid lines that go directly to the city center.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Toronto seems to be the only large densely populated city in the world where people who are against building a proper subway system are taken seriously.

C'mon Andrew. You have to be kidding us. Nobody in Toronto is against building a proper subway system. We're building more subways than anyone on this side of the globe. Just look at all the subways we're building right now. Between 2000 and 2010 we started work on over 20 km of subways, that will be opening between the next two and six years. And there's even more to come, with the Yonge North, Scarborough and Relief Line subways.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

]Of course like I said, TTC should stop building systems feeding to Yonge, or extend it. Building non-grid lines that go directly to the city center.

NO. Never break the integrity of the grid. It's the most efficient way of moving people. Toronto's grid system is one of the great things about this city.

Of course like I said, TTC should stop building systems feeding to Yonge, or extend it. Building non-grid lines that go directly to the city center.

Well we have GO RER for that.

 

[ksun]

C'mon Andrew. You have to be kidding us. Nobody in Toronto is against building a proper subway system. We're building more subways than anyone on this side of the globe. Just look at all the subways we're building right now. Between 2000 and 2010 we started work on over 20 km of subways, that will be opening between the next two and six years. And there's even more to come, with the Yonge North, Scarborough and Relief Line subways.

Assuming this side means the western hemisphere. Go check what Los Angeles has built over the past the decade before claiming to be the champion.
Yonge North and DRL shouldn't count as they are not even approved, not to say designed.

 

[jeffreym]

You actually think that it is good for Eglinton LRT to be so overcrowded that you have to wait for several trains to go by and you need pushers at Don Mills, Eglinton and Eglinton West stations like the Tokyo subway? The Tokyo subway has subway trains that are much longer than what are used in Toronto, and many parallel lines, and is still severely overcrowded because of the sheer population density of that city. The whole overcrowding problem on Eglinton would go away if we built a proper subway with higher capacity.

Well if you're so certain, let's talk numbers. How many people do you expect to be using the line per hour at the peak point at the peak hour? Where will the peak point be and why? What's your breakdown for where the new riders will be getting on? Where are the new riders coming from – i.e. how many will be coming say from STC, how many will be new users from existing developments, how many will be new to transit but that currently live in the area and how many will be from new developments? How did you come up with those numbers? On a related note, what mode share do you expect transit to get with all these new condos? What leads you to that particular conclusion?

So far you've still been speaking about your gut feelings. You can't pull numbers out of the air like that. Well, I guess you can.. but you shouldn't. Because if we're playing that game I'm going to insist that we install a subway to North Bay – my gut feeling is that it'll be super profitable.

The TTC/Metrolinx came up with their numbers by doing an analysis based on all sort of statistical data. Yes, there are a lot of assumptions built in, but that's how you challenge their numbers – by challenging their individual assumptions. Picking a new number of out the air and accusing the TTC's numbers of being unrealistic (or as you put it - "the inaccurate ridership projections that the Miller administration created") just reenforces that you're not to be taken seriously because you don't know what you're talking about

TL;DR - If you want to challenge ridership projections, bring your own data to the table and explain how you came up with those numbers

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Assuming this side means the western hemisphere. Go check what Los Angeles has built over the past the decade before claiming to be the champion.
Yonge North and DRL shouldn't count as they are not even approved, not to say designed.

I should have rephrased that. I was including TYSSE, Yonge North, Relief Line, ECLRT, Scarb. How many km is LA building?

 

[ehlow]

Building non-grid lines that go directly to the city center.

That's what the GO tracks are

 

[Tuscani01]

Assuming this side means the western hemisphere. Go check what Los Angeles has built over the past the decade before claiming to be the champion.
Yonge North and DRL shouldn't count as they are not even approved, not to say designed.

um... LA has built more LRT than subway in the last decade. What point are you attempting to make? They have only built 10km of subway, vs. 76km of LRT...

Edit: Oh, and btw, the two subway lines that exist in LA are downtown. They have built and are building LRT everywhere else.

 

[ehlow]

I should have rephrased that. I was including TYSSE, Yonge North, Relief Line, ECLRT, Scarb. How many km is LA building?

LA did a good job over the last 20 years, and it's mostly LRT.

 

[JayBeeGooner]

L.A.'s transportation plans are largely based on building LRT and BRT, and just the Wilshire Subway. Building subways in L.A. is really expensive due to the the geology. The Purple line extension is going ahead, but I wouldn't expect many more subway km's to be built in the city. It's far easier and cheaper to build surface LRT with the occasional tunneled section, than subways.

 

[salsa]

I don't see that as a problem. If at all, it is good news the Eglinton corridor becomes a lot denser when people move from the suburbs to somewhere much closer to the core.
As to crowdedness, people will handle it, just like people handle it just fine in Tokyo. Big cities are crowded, so what. Expect less personal space in the train and your back may be forced to press against some else's chest during rush hour, big deal. And if situation really becomes crippling, the government will be forced to make decisions they otherwise would be afraid to.

You are nuts. Is this the kind of quality of life you want to live?

 

[ksun]

L.A.'s transportation plans are largely based on building LRT and BRT, and just the Wilshire Subway. Building subways in L.A. is really expensive due to the the geology. The Purple line extension is going ahead, but I wouldn't expect many more subway km's to be built in the city. It's far easier and cheaper to build surface LRT with the occasional tunneled section, than subways.

Yes, LA's medium to high density across the entire city is ideal for LRTs.

 

[ksun]

You are nuts. Is this the kind of quality of life you want to live?

that's simply typical large city living.
I like crowded subways, because it shows the system is receiving a lot of fare payment and doesn't need to be subsidized as much. Half empty trains at 8:30am worry me since taxes are obviously not used in the right place.

 

[andrewpmk]

Well if you're so certain, let's talk numbers. How many people do you expect to be using the line per hour at the peak point at the peak hour? Where will the peak point be and why? What's your breakdown for where the new riders will be getting on? Where are the new riders coming from – i.e. how many will be coming say from STC, how many will be new users from existing developments, how many will be new to transit but that currently live in the area and how many will be from new developments? How did you come up with those numbers? On a related note, what mode share do you expect transit to get with all these new condos? What leads you to that particular conclusion?

So far you've still been speaking about your gut feelings. You can't pull numbers out of the air like that. Well, I guess you can.. but you shouldn't. Because if we're playing that game I'm going to insist that we install a subway to North Bay – my gut feeling is that it'll be super profitable.

The TTC/Metrolinx came up with their numbers by doing an analysis based on all sort of statistical data. Yes, there are a lot of assumptions built in, but that's how you challenge their numbers – by challenging their individual assumptions. Picking a new number of out the air and accusing the TTC's numbers of being unrealistic (or as you put it - "the inaccurate ridership projections that the Miller administration created") just reenforces that you're not to be taken seriously because you don't know what you're talking about

TL;DR - If you want to challenge ridership projections, bring your own data to the table and explain how you came up with those numbers

The TTC did a lousy job with these projections, they never really revealed where the numbers came from. I always suspect that when the politicians want LRT (e.g. Eglinton) they underestimate future development and when the politicians want subway (Vaughan subway) they rezone an undesirable industrial area at Jane/7 and claim that many tall buildings will be built, but the area is too undesirable to really be very successful. The other possible explanation is that in the case of Finch/Sheppard, the actual ridership really will be low because a slow LRT line with a transfer in the case of Sheppard is unattractive and most people will drive. This doesn't make sense for Eglinton which is as fast as a subway in the underground part.

To guesstimate projections ourselves it probably makes sense to look at Statistics Canada census tract data which shows where existing population lives in Toronto. You can also get statistics about how many jobs and square feet of office space exists in various parts of the GTA. We know that some fraction of the residents will take the LRT in the busiest hour of morning rush hour, which is what determines how overcrowded a line is. If 10000 people move to Don Mills/Eglinton in addition to about 20,000 existing residents and there is no DRL that probably translates into a few thousand more people using the LRT westbound during the peak hour. Others will use the LRT during other times of day, use the LRT eastbound in the morning towards Kennedy (probably not very many), take the bus, walk to one of the nearby office buildings or drive. Given how few parking spaces are planned in this development not many people will drive to work.