Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[duffo]

They're not.

They're about halfway between a subway car and an SRT car - about 9 1/2 feet wide by 65-ish feet long per car, coupled into 4-car trains (260 feet long) with the potential of adding a 5th car.

The LRT cars are narrower - 8 feet, 9 inches - and at the start will be less than 200 feet long but will ultimately be almost 300 feet long.

Automation has no bearing on the size of the equipment.

Dan

Fair point, forgot the ECLRT cars will be smaller than subway.

But the point still stands that the OL cars will be on the smaller side, not because automation requires it, but because they can achieve equal throughput to a manually-operated subway via high-frequency service enabled by automation. And unlock cost savings associated with smaller stations due to shorter trains... Although this seems only theoretical when MX is running the show lol

 

[innercrow]

If you have ten billion dollars to spare, anything's possible.

Other people have speculated, and I agree, that it's more likely they cut the line at Doug Ford's Corruption Emporium Science Centre and instead run Ottawa/Seattle-style operations to the west, and the east gets the Finch treatment.

That's out of the range of most of our lifetimes, and if Eglinton East gets built without the connection, this plan will be dead forever.



The bigger concern than gauge here is platform height. To use the OL's trains would require a conversion of the Eglinton Line platforms to high floor, something which would optimistically require a multi-month shutdown (probably multi-year). Otherwise, with LRVs, just turn around every other train or every third train at Don Mills when capacity hits the roof.

Honestly, it's the same deal as Sheppard; I don't think a conversion or elevated guideway will happen, if for no other reason than the inconvenience to existing riders while everything changes over. (elevated even more so, that's a multi-year shutdown anywhere)

Not to dwell on hypotheticals but I don't think it's that unlikely that eastern grade separation could take place eventually, considering the density that's being built along the corridor. Plus we did just shut down the SRT and put in a bus replacement service while the SSE gets built so there is precedent.

That said you're right about how onerous high floor conversion would be. I think the most likely compromise in the future will be to grade separate and maybe automate the whole line for capacity, while replacing the rolling stock with low floor vehicles with better layouts more suited to subway style function (like e.g. the Skoda 15t)

 

[Bojaxs]

Agreed.

In addition to the grade separations themselves, the biggest issue would be raising the platforms (elevators, escalators) in all the stations.

Would it be cheaper to lower the tracks at the stations?

 

[Amare]

Would it be cheaper to lower the tracks at the stations?

Then you would still have to modify all station platforms, so no.

 

[toronto647]

Considering we are in September now, would it be fair to say Eglinton LRT will not open in 2024? Media will bounce on this story if it doesn't open in 2024. If yes, what are the chances it opens in Q1 of 2025 or what is the best educated guess at this point?

 

[generalcanada]

Considering we are in September now, would it be fair to say Eglinton LRT will not open in 2024? Media will bounce on this story if it doesn't open in 2024. If yes, what are the chances it opens in Q1 of 2025 or what is the best educated guess at this point?

Based on insider info we were provided. Operator training is currently happening, with completion by mid-late September, then 3 months of service with no passengers. The absolute latest should be february. But probably early-mid january

 

[toronto647]

Based on insider info we were provided. Operator training is currently happening, with completion by mid-late September, then 3 months of service with no passengers. The absolute latest should be february. But probably early-mid january

You think they would open this line the middle of winter? snowstorms and all

 

[Aplus23]

You think they would open this line the middle of winter? snowstorms and all

It has to operate in the snow regardless, so I don't see why they would object to opening the line in the winter, winter 2025 is gonna happen regardless, if it can open winter 2024 then open it. You'd actually get some good will from transit riders happy to have a new line in the middle of winter

 

[Bojaxs]

Then you would still have to modify all station platforms, so no.

Sure, but we wouldn't have to mess about with the elevators and escalators.

 

[T3G]

Not to dwell on hypotheticals but I don't think it's that unlikely that eastern grade separation could take place eventually, considering the density that's being built along the corridor. Plus we did just shut down the SRT and put in a bus replacement service while the SSE gets built so there is precedent.

That said you're right about how onerous high floor conversion would be. I think the most likely compromise in the future will be to grade separate and maybe automate the whole line for capacity, while replacing the rolling stock with low floor vehicles with better layouts more suited to subway style function (like e.g. the Skoda 15t)

The only reason we shut down the SRT is because the manufacturer of the cars refused to build new cars in a specification that would let them navigate the sharp corners we have, so we essentially had no choice but to condemn the line. If we could've renewed the fleet normally there would be no argument for doing anything else to the SRT (apart from the weather related problems, but considering that the line ran for 38 years I doubt anyone would have done anything about it anyway).

What is it about the 15 T that makes them more suited to subway style functioning? The area around the trucks is roughly as tight as it is on the Flexity, and anything on open ground is just a question of good floorplan design.

 

[innercrow]

The only reason we shut down the SRT is because the manufacturer of the cars refused to build new cars in a specification that would let them navigate the sharp corners we have, so we essentially had no choice but to condemn the line. If we could've renewed the fleet normally there would be no argument for doing anything else to the SRT (apart from the weather related problems, but considering that the line ran for 38 years I doubt anyone would have done anything about it anyway).

What is it about the 15 T that makes them more suited to subway style functioning? The area around the trucks is roughly as tight as it is on the Flexity, and anything on open ground is just a question of good floorplan design.

Sure, you're right that the SRT was decommissioned for unplanned reasons. But my point is that when the capacity constraints on the tramway portion inevitably start to show decommissioning old infrastructure won't be the end of the world. Especially on Eglinton which is already mostly a subway.

Re: the 15t, I would say it's better suited because it has better door distribution and a better bogie arrangement with less space wasted on articulations. The seating layout in each segment can also be configured to maximize standing/moving space since there are no bogies in the way. Also less weight on each axle means less wear. But really it was just an example of an existing possible reconfiguration, no point in litigating the specifics of hypothetical rolling stock.

 

[nfitz]

You think they would open this line the middle of winter? snowstorms and all

Why not? They've been running it in the winter for years.

The ground didn't even freeze last winter until February.

 

[Amare]

Sure, but we wouldn't have to mess about with the elevators and escalators.

You're really beating a dead horse.

 

[smallspy]

But the point still stands that the OL cars will be on the smaller side, not because automation requires it, but because they can achieve equal throughput to a manually-operated subway via high-frequency service enabled by automation. And unlock cost savings associated with smaller stations due to shorter trains... Although this seems only theoretical when MX is running the show lol

Not at all.

They're smaller because someone at Metrolinx bought into the marketing wank about "light metro" systems, and was able to convince their higher ups that it's somehow better to build an entirely new system from scratch rather than use existing standards with tie-ins to existing infrastructure to save on costs where applicable.

Should the track layout be designed correctly (and the signal system is upgraded to suit), there's no reason why Toronto's existing subways couldn't operate at the same headways as the Ontario Line. As with the existing trains enclosing a considerably bigger internal volume, there would therefore be a correspondingly bigger capacity for the full system as well.

Will the Ontario Line equal the capacity of the Yonge Line? Potentially. But it's going to cost all of us a hell of a lot of money to do it, arguably more than it would have been otherwise.

Dan

 

[Bojaxs]

Not at all.

They're smaller because someone at Metrolinx bought into the marketing wank about "light metro" systems, and was able to convince their higher ups that it's somehow better to build an entirely new system from scratch rather than use existing standards with tie-ins to existing infrastructure to save on costs where applicable.

Should the track layout be designed correctly (and the signal system is upgraded to suit), there's no reason why Toronto's existing subways couldn't operate at the same headways as the Ontario Line. As with the existing trains enclosing a considerably bigger internal volume, there would therefore be a correspondingly bigger capacity for the full system as well.

Will the Ontario Line equal the capacity of the Yonge Line? Potentially. But it's going to cost all of us a hell of a lot of money to do it, arguably more than it would have been otherwise.

Dan

It's really frustrating how Metrolinx is constructing every transit line to different parameters & specifications. Even different voltage setups for the electrical systems for both the Finch and Eglinton LRT lines.

Why does Metrolinx appear to see no value in any kind of standardization/ interoperability among Toronto's transit line?

The lack of interoperability among Toronto's newest transit lines is going to be expensive in the long run.