Toronto Eglinton Line 5 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[rdaner]

I wonder if ML ever considered opening the GO and UPX part of Mount Dennis Station just to do something positive? It will be interesting to see if there are going to be many GO riders getting off at either Mt. Dennis or Kennedy to transfer to Eglinton. Also the UPX is being used by many (myself included!) as a subway line. The addition of another stop will likely increase this trend.

 

[anb]

I wonder if ML ever considered opening the GO and UPX part of Mount Dennis Station just to do something positive? It will be interesting to see if there are going to be many GO riders getting off at either Mt. Dennis or Kennedy to transfer to Eglinton. Also the UPX is being used by many (myself included!) as a subway line. The addition of another stop will likely increase this trend.

That probably depends on where on Eglinton they are going. If you’re heading from the Airport or anywhere on the Kitchener Line then it makes better sense to transfer at Mount Dennis, and same goes for if you are on the Stouffville and LSE lines to transfer at Kennedy.

But it could also depend on if your destination on Eglinton are closer to the respective GO station.

 

[Bojaxs]

Hypothetical question.

If we were to grade separate the eastern portion of the Eglinton Crosstown (elevation, tunnel, etc.), could we bring it to the same parameters, specifications as the Ontario line? Essentially have Eglinton running the same Hitachi trains as the Ontario line. Would it be difficult to do this sometime in the future?

 

[Richard White]

Hypothetical question.

If we were to grade separate the eastern portion of the Eglinton Crosstown (elevation, tunnel, etc.), could we bring it to the same parameters, specifications as the Ontario line? Essentially have Eglinton running the same Hitachi trains as the Ontario line. Would it be difficult to do this sometime in the future?

Nothing is impossible when you have unlimited funds.

That said nobody will ever support an elevated rail system. Not now, not in the future.

As for tunneling.. that ship has sailed.

 

[ARG1]

That said nobody will ever support an elevated rail system. Not now, not in the future.

That's a very definitive statement considering how much of the Ontario Line will be elevated, and how keen Metrolinx seems to be on elevating the Sheppard Line.

Like if Vancouver can elevate the majority of its Metro system, there is no reason Toronto can't.

 

[duffo]

Hypothetical question.

If we were to grade separate the eastern portion of the Eglinton Crosstown (elevation, tunnel, etc.), could we bring it to the same parameters, specifications as the Ontario line? Essentially have Eglinton running the same Hitachi trains as the Ontario line. Would it be difficult to do this sometime in the future?

The Ontario Line trains are smaller than Eglinton Line because the OL is automated. I'd imagine it would take a pretty comprehensive re-signalling effort across the whole line, and maybe targeted track upgrades, to automate the line to run the frequencies required to have those smaller trains and provide the same/additional capacity. There may also be fire safety/ventilation upgrades required to handle the extra trains.

The Eglinton Line is already automated in the yard and tunneled section, but not sure if the system was designed to handle the 90s frequencies that we may see on the OL.

Otherwise, both trains use standard gauge. Lots of transit lines around the world use mixed fleet.

 

[DirectionNorth]

Hypothetical question.

If we were to grade separate the eastern portion of the Eglinton Crosstown (elevation, tunnel, etc.), could we bring it to the same parameters, specifications as the Ontario line? Essentially have Eglinton running the same Hitachi trains as the Ontario line. Would it be difficult to do this sometime in the future?

If you have ten billion dollars to spare, anything's possible.

Other people have speculated, and I agree, that it's more likely they cut the line at Doug Ford's Corruption Emporium Science Centre and instead run Ottawa/Seattle-style operations to the west, and the east gets the Finch treatment.

That's out of the range of most of our lifetimes, and if Eglinton East gets built without the connection, this plan will be dead forever.

That's a very definitive statement considering how much of the Ontario Line will be elevated, and how keen Metrolinx seems to be on elevating the Sheppard Line.

Like if Vancouver can elevate the majority of its Metro system, there is no reason Toronto can't.

The Ontario Line trains are smaller than Eglinton Line because the OL is automated. I'd imagine it would take a pretty comprehensive re-signalling effort across the whole line, and maybe targeted track upgrades, to automate the line to run the frequencies required to have those smaller trains and provide the same/additional capacity. There may also be fire safety/ventilation upgrades required to handle the extra trains.

The Eglinton Line is already automated in the yard and tunneled section, but not sure if the system was designed to handle the 90s frequencies that we may see on the OL.

Otherwise, both trains use standard gauge. Lots of transit lines around the world use mixed fleet.

The bigger concern than gauge here is platform height. To use the OL's trains would require a conversion of the Eglinton Line platforms to high floor, something which would optimistically require a multi-month shutdown (probably multi-year). Otherwise, with LRVs, just turn around every other train or every third train at Don Mills when capacity hits the roof.

Honestly, it's the same deal as Sheppard; I don't think a conversion or elevated guideway will happen, if for no other reason than the inconvenience to existing riders while everything changes over. (elevated even more so, that's a multi-year shutdown anywhere)

 

[smallspy]

The Ontario Line trains are smaller than Eglinton Line because the OL is automated.

They're not.

They're about halfway between a subway car and an SRT car - about 9 1/2 feet wide by 65-ish feet long per car, coupled into 4-car trains (260 feet long) with the potential of adding a 5th car.

The LRT cars are narrower - 8 feet, 9 inches - and at the start will be less than 200 feet long but will ultimately be almost 300 feet long.

Automation has no bearing on the size of the equipment.

Dan

 

[Jonny5]

Hypothetical question.

If we were to grade separate the eastern portion of the Eglinton Crosstown (elevation, tunnel, etc.), could we bring it to the same parameters, specifications as the Ontario line? Essentially have Eglinton running the same Hitachi trains as the Ontario line. Would it be difficult to do this sometime in the future?

The expense of doing all that would in any circumstance I can think up be better used for another new line, or by making a new branch off of the Crosstown.

 

[nfitz]

The expense of doing all that would in any circumstance I can think up be better used for another new line, or by making a new branch off of the Crosstown.

Agreed.

In addition to the grade separations themselves, the biggest issue would be raising the platforms (elevators, escalators) in all the stations.

 

[duffo]

They're not.

They're about halfway between a subway car and an SRT car - about 9 1/2 feet wide by 65-ish feet long per car, coupled into 4-car trains (260 feet long) with the potential of adding a 5th car.

The LRT cars are narrower - 8 feet, 9 inches - and at the start will be less than 200 feet long but will ultimately be almost 300 feet long.

Automation has no bearing on the size of the equipment.

Dan

Fair point, forgot the ECLRT cars will be smaller than subway.

But the point still stands that the OL cars will be on the smaller side, not because automation requires it, but because they can achieve equal throughput to a manually-operated subway via high-frequency service enabled by automation. And unlock cost savings associated with smaller stations due to shorter trains... Although this seems only theoretical when MX is running the show lol

 

[innercrow]

If you have ten billion dollars to spare, anything's possible.

Other people have speculated, and I agree, that it's more likely they cut the line at Doug Ford's Corruption Emporium Science Centre and instead run Ottawa/Seattle-style operations to the west, and the east gets the Finch treatment.

That's out of the range of most of our lifetimes, and if Eglinton East gets built without the connection, this plan will be dead forever.



The bigger concern than gauge here is platform height. To use the OL's trains would require a conversion of the Eglinton Line platforms to high floor, something which would optimistically require a multi-month shutdown (probably multi-year). Otherwise, with LRVs, just turn around every other train or every third train at Don Mills when capacity hits the roof.

Honestly, it's the same deal as Sheppard; I don't think a conversion or elevated guideway will happen, if for no other reason than the inconvenience to existing riders while everything changes over. (elevated even more so, that's a multi-year shutdown anywhere)

Not to dwell on hypotheticals but I don't think it's that unlikely that eastern grade separation could take place eventually, considering the density that's being built along the corridor. Plus we did just shut down the SRT and put in a bus replacement service while the SSE gets built so there is precedent.

That said you're right about how onerous high floor conversion would be. I think the most likely compromise in the future will be to grade separate and maybe automate the whole line for capacity, while replacing the rolling stock with low floor vehicles with better layouts more suited to subway style function (like e.g. the Skoda 15t)

 

[Bojaxs]

Agreed.

In addition to the grade separations themselves, the biggest issue would be raising the platforms (elevators, escalators) in all the stations.

Would it be cheaper to lower the tracks at the stations?

 

[Amare]

Would it be cheaper to lower the tracks at the stations?

Then you would still have to modify all station platforms, so no.

 

[toronto647]

Considering we are in September now, would it be fair to say Eglinton LRT will not open in 2024? Media will bounce on this story if it doesn't open in 2024. If yes, what are the chances it opens in Q1 of 2025 or what is the best educated guess at this point?