Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[TheTigerMaster]

The TTC published an estimated escalated cost of the LRT, and it was something like $2.5 billion. Supporters of the LRT called it bullcrap of course, refusing to believe those numbers. Apparently the LRT is immune from cost changes but the subway is possible to see infinite increases into the trillions.

TTC CEO said that the reason for the high LRT cost estimates was its later contruction start date. They assumed that any contruction of the Scarborough LRT could not begin until contruction of the Eglinton Line was complete, in September 2021.

When questioned about the rational for this assumption, Byford admitted that the construction start date estimate could have been inaccurate, and that contruction of the Scarborough LRT could start much sooner than September 2021, if they started building the north end of the line immediately. The only part of the line that needed to start contruction after Sept 2021 was the part connecting to Kennedy Station. So until the TTC releases revised estimates accounting for that, we don't know what the LRT would've cost.

 

[APTA-2048]

just curious but does anyone know if the demolition of the pote office building by kennedy sation have anything to do with the crosstown line?

Yes, new entrances will be built in the vicinty.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The first phase of Eglinton, from Eglinton West to Martin Grove, was originally planned to have been opened by now back when it was first funded, McGuinty, and Wynn as Transportation Minister, then later cut the line back and delayed the rest of it to finish at the same time as the last phase to save a few bucks.

They also delayed and cut back the Scarborough LRT, and if that had not happened then it also would have been open by now and this Scarborough Subway garbage would never have happened,

It was the beginning of the current round of flip flopping, delays, deferments, vote pandering and cancellations.

Five years from now, people will say McGuinty is the worst premier in history, even though that might not be fair in some respects. If ford had not been elected either. These two set us back 10 and maybe 15 years on transit.

Let's see if I have my history in order for this round of transit planning

- City of Toronto announces Transit City, including the Eglinton LRT from Pearson to Kennedy

- McGunity government cancels Eglinton West LRT and delays the rest of Transit City, infuriating then-mayor David Miller.

- Planning continues for the remainder of Eglinton, Finch and Sheppard LRTs, and preliminary construction for Sheppard LRT begins

- Anti-LRT Ford comes to power. He requests, without the permission of Council (the people who actually run this city), for Transit City to be canceled. McGuinty happily obliges.

- Toronto City Council says "lol nah" to cancelling Transit City, and notifies the McGunity Government that the City of Toronto sill supports the project, despite the objections of the mayor

- The McGuinty government un-cancels, but delays implementation Transit City

- Crosstown LRT is delayed by another year by Metrolinx

- Toronto decides it doesn't want to build the Scarborough LRT, but opts for the Scarborough Subway Extension instead. Scarborough LRT is canceled.

- The Wynne Government effectively cancels the Sheppard East LRT

- Toronto discovers that Scarborough Subway is too expensive to build, and shortens the extension

- Toronto decides to continue building out parts of the original Transit City plan, including Crosstown West and Malvern LRT.

Embarrassing. And as usual, everything eventually gets built for twice as much.

 

[OneCity]

Let's see if I have my history in order for this round of transit planning

- City of Toronto announces Transit City, including the Eglinton LRT from Pearson to Kennedy

- McGunity government cancels Eglinton West LRT and delays the rest of Transit City, infuriating then-mayor David Miller.

- Planning continues for the remainder of Eglinton, Finch and Sheppard LRTs, and preliminary construction for Sheppard LRT begins

- Anti-LRT Ford comes to power. He requests, without the permission of Council (the people who actually run this city), for Transit City to be canceled. McGuinty happily obliges.

- Toronto City Council says "lol nah" to cancelling Transit City, and notifies the McGunity Government that the City of Toronto sill supports the project, despite the objections of the mayor

- The McGuinty government un-cancels, but delays implementation Transit City

- Crosstown LRT is delayed by another year by Metrolinx

- Toronto decides it doesn't want to build the Scarborough LRT, but opts for the Scarborough Subway Extension instead. Scarborough LRT is canceled.

- The Wynne Government effectively cancels the Sheppard East LRT

- Toronto discovers that Scarborough Subway is too expensive to build, and shortens the extension

- Toronto decides to continue building out parts of the original Transit City plan, including Crosstown West and Malvern LRT.

Pretty close...

- City of Toronto announces Transit City, including the Eglinton LRT from Pearson to Kennedy

- McGunity government cancels Eglinton West LRT and delays the rest of Transit City, infuriating then-mayor David Miller.

- Planning continues for the remainder of Eglinton, Finch and Sheppard LRTs, and preliminary construction for Sheppard LRT begins

-McGuinty cuts back Sheppard to Morningside and removes SMLRT off the "Next Wave". Basically removing arguably the most effective line for Scarborough in the Transit City plan forever

- Anti-LRT Ford comes to power. He requests, without the permission of Council (the people who actually run this city), for Transit City to be canceled. McGuinty happily obliges.

- Toronto City Council says "lol nah" to cancelling Transit City, and notifies the McGunity Government that the City of Toronto sill supports the project, despite the objections of the mayor

- The McGuinty government un-cancels, but delays implementation Transit City

- Crosstown LRT is delayed by another year by Metrolinx

-Ford strikes a compromise with McGuinty to extend the Crosstown to STC and build the Sheppard subway. Council has turned on Ford and rejects the compromise

-Toronto decides it doesn't want to build the Scarborough LRT, but opts for the Scarborough Subway Extension instead. Scarborough LRT is canceled.

- The Wynne Government effectively delays (will likely be canceled) the Sheppard East LRT

- Mayor Tory comes to power with full support of the SSE. Toronto discovers that Scarborough Subway is too expensive to build, and shortens the extension. (This shortening has more to do with a Mayor trying to mediate around a divided council. Neither side is winniing this debate under Tory)

- Toronto decides to continue building out parts of the original Transit City plan, including Crosstown West and Malvern LRT.

 

[Steve X]

Also note the changes made to transit city:

Metrolinx decided to be cheap and have the tunnels completed before building the stations. What was originally planned as a 6 year project becomes a 10 year project.

Crosstown West becomes closer to a regional line instead of a local line originally planned for Transit city. Grade separation would increase the cost significantly.

 

[Towered]

I certainly hope that DRL West doesn't get frankensteined into a hybrid Dufferin subway.

There are far more communities to the west of Dufferin that need mass transit more (Parkdale, Swansea, High Park, Junction, Stockyards, Weston) that'll forever get screwed over if such a thing is undertaken.

29 Dufferin will NOT be s busy as it is today, if there's a subway at Queen and underground LRT at Eglinton to alleviate passenger loads.

I agree, Dufferin is not nearly far west enough for the DRL. It needs its own separate rapid transit line.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I agree, Dufferin is not nearly far west enough for the DRL. It needs its own separate rapid transit line.

I certainly hope that DRL West doesn't get frankensteined into a hybrid Dufferin subway.

There are far more communities to the west of Dufferin that need mass transit more (Parkdale, Swansea, High Park, Junction, Stockyards, Weston) that'll forever get screwed over if such a thing is undertaken.

29 Dufferin will NOT be s busy as it is today, if there's a subway at Queen and underground LRT at Eglinton to alleviate passenger loads.

I could try to see the city pull something and do this given the history of transit development. They'll say UPX is in the corridor. The real answer to that is to use Parkside Drive and Keele Station. Which gives you a straight shot to Mt Dennis.

 

[Steve X]

If the city does figure out a way to fund future transit, maybe a branch of the DRL can head up Dufferin to Eglinton/Fairbank Station. The other branch would continue westward to Roncesvalles and up to Dundas West Station.

 

[Hopkins123]

I could try to see the city pull something and do this given the history of transit development. They'll say UPX is in the corridor. The real answer to that is to use Parkside Drive and Keele Station. Which gives you a straight shot to Mt Dennis.

I agree, Dufferin is not nearly far west enough for the DRL. It needs its own separate rapid transit line.

The Keele alignment really does offer the most benefit.

- Avoids service redundancy between Queen and St Clair, by not routing through the Georgetown corridor
- Opens up a gateway to Swansea and southern Etobicoke via what I'd envision would be a massive intermodal station (bus, streetcar, subway, commuter GO train) at Roncesvalles, which also connects to the hospital
- Easiest path to get from Queen to Bloor via High Park versus disrupting streetcar service along Roncy
- Shallow interchange at Bloor that could easily integrate with the mezzanine level of the existing station, western end of the station could be fitted with dual high-speed elevators per platform for easily transferring between lines.
- Best location to service the Junction with a stop. If Dupont/Dundas is chosen, it's a very pedestrian unsafe area by contrast.
- Massive TOD potential at Keele and St Clair (some of this is already occurring)

To illustrate what could be the end game for the DRL, I present the following:



The Trethewey Stn would help alleviate the Jane bus in a big way whisking passengers downtown way before hitting Bloor, or even the Crosstown. And whatever is built along Highway 27 likely has to be grade-separated anyway, so why not an elevated subway via the Weston-Galt and Hwy 27 to meet the Finch West LRT at Humber College? The run time from Humber College to City Centre would likely be only 25 minutes versus the 1 hour time frame it takes today. Just a thought.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Really great idea. However my preference remains for the Relief Line to remain under Jane Street (via Weston Road and Keele, as you suggested). I expect it would have a lot higher ridership there than any other potential alignment I've seen. I don't think Humber will have subway-level demand anytime soon.

Your post now has me realizing that Keele Station is elevated. Really surprised I never noticed that before.

 

[Kitsune]

... I want to see it run to Jane station with a Station around Kingsway /Queensway to serve all those high rises in the Humber area. The line could run at grade past Glendale to around Ellis. And for the pie in the sky scenario - run it up to Jane and turn it at Eglinton to service the airport. Dundas West is going to have the way quicker transfer to RER to get downtown.

 

[Rainforest]

The Keele alignment really does offer the most benefit.

- Avoids service redundancy between Queen and St Clair, by not routing through the Georgetown corridor
- Opens up a gateway to Swansea and southern Etobicoke via what I'd envision would be a massive intermodal station (bus, streetcar, subway, commuter GO train) at Roncesvalles, which also connects to the hospital
- Easiest path to get from Queen to Bloor via High Park versus disrupting streetcar service along Roncy
- Shallow interchange at Bloor that could easily integrate with the mezzanine level of the existing station, western end of the station could be fitted with dual high-speed elevators per platform for easily transferring between lines.
- Best location to service the Junction with a stop. If Dupont/Dundas is chosen, it's a very pedestrian unsafe area by contrast.
- Massive TOD potential at Keele and St Clair (some of this is already occurring)

To illustrate what could be the end game for the DRL, I present the following:



The Trethewey Stn would help alleviate the Jane bus in a big way whisking passengers downtown way before hitting Bloor, or even the Crosstown. And whatever is built along Highway 27 likely has to be grade-separated anyway, so why not an elevated subway via the Weston-Galt and Hwy 27 to meet the Finch West LRT at Humber College? The run time from Humber College to City Centre would likely be only 25 minutes versus the 1 hour time frame it takes today. Just a thought.

Any routing of "DRL West Long" will be well used, as long as it has interchanges with all major surface routes. In that sense, your proposal is reasonable.

I have two concerns with this particular routing: 1) very low demand on Keele south of Bloor, compared to Dufferin; 2) you placed the line in the Brampton - Georgetown GO corridor from north of St Clair, but I doubt that there is any room left there after the recent round of GO track expansion.

However, you are right about the benefits of building the interchange between the DRL West and Bloor lines at Kele.

 

[crs1026]

By the time it is built, there will be Crosstown West and Finch West to feed to this line. The Keele to Jane/Weston to Jane North makes most sense to me.

I disagree that Jane/Bloor needs another subway. It's an area where development pressure is already too great. No big problem for people wishing to transfer to ride the three extra stops to Keele - that will get them where they are going just as well.

- Paul

 

[Johnny Au]

The Keele alignment really does offer the most benefit.

- Avoids service redundancy between Queen and St Clair, by not routing through the Georgetown corridor
- Opens up a gateway to Swansea and southern Etobicoke via what I'd envision would be a massive intermodal station (bus, streetcar, subway, commuter GO train) at Roncesvalles, which also connects to the hospital
- Easiest path to get from Queen to Bloor via High Park versus disrupting streetcar service along Roncy
- Shallow interchange at Bloor that could easily integrate with the mezzanine level of the existing station, western end of the station could be fitted with dual high-speed elevators per platform for easily transferring between lines.
- Best location to service the Junction with a stop. If Dupont/Dundas is chosen, it's a very pedestrian unsafe area by contrast.
- Massive TOD potential at Keele and St Clair (some of this is already occurring)

To illustrate what could be the end game for the DRL, I present the following:



The Trethewey Stn would help alleviate the Jane bus in a big way whisking passengers downtown way before hitting Bloor, or even the Crosstown. And whatever is built along Highway 27 likely has to be grade-separated anyway, so why not an elevated subway via the Weston-Galt and Hwy 27 to meet the Finch West LRT at Humber College? The run time from Humber College to City Centre would likely be only 25 minutes versus the 1 hour time frame it takes today. Just a thought.

There's one problem with the alignment: it would be very close to an aquifer. There's a reason why Spring Road in High Park is called such.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The Keele alignment really does offer the most benefit.

- Avoids service redundancy between Queen and St Clair, by not routing through the Georgetown corridor
- Opens up a gateway to Swansea and southern Etobicoke via what I'd envision would be a massive intermodal station (bus, streetcar, subway, commuter GO train) at Roncesvalles, which also connects to the hospital
- Easiest path to get from Queen to Bloor via High Park versus disrupting streetcar service along Roncy
- Shallow interchange at Bloor that could easily integrate with the mezzanine level of the existing station, western end of the station could be fitted with dual high-speed elevators per platform for easily transferring between lines.
- Best location to service the Junction with a stop. If Dupont/Dundas is chosen, it's a very pedestrian unsafe area by contrast.
- Massive TOD potential at Keele and St Clair (some of this is already occurring)

To illustrate what could be the end game for the DRL, I present the following:



The Trethewey Stn would help alleviate the Jane bus in a big way whisking passengers downtown way before hitting Bloor, or even the Crosstown. And whatever is built along Highway 27 likely has to be grade-separated anyway, so why not an elevated subway via the Weston-Galt and Hwy 27 to meet the Finch West LRT at Humber College? The run time from Humber College to City Centre would likely be only 25 minutes versus the 1 hour time frame it takes today. Just a thought.

Pretty nice! This would be perfect and would evenly space out the demand.

Really great idea. However my preference remains for the Relief Line to remain under Jane Street (via Weston Road and Keele, as you suggested). I expect it would have a lot higher ridership there than any other potential alignment I've seen. I don't think Humber will have subway-level demand anytime soon.

Your post now has me realizing that Keele Station is elevated. Really surprised I never noticed that before.

... I want to see it run to Jane station with a Station around Kingsway /Queensway to serve all those high rises in the Humber area. The line could run at grade past Glendale to around Ellis. And for the pie in the sky scenario - run it up to Jane and turn it at Eglinton to service the airport. Dundas West is going to have the way quicker transfer to RER to get downtown.

I do think Jane street would be too far. But the kingsway idea sounds interesting? Is there ridership potential over there?

Any routing of "DRL West Long" will be well used, as long as it has interchanges with all major surface routes. In that sense, your proposal is reasonable.

I have two concerns with this particular routing: 1) very low demand on Keele south of Bloor, compared to Dufferin; 2) you placed the line in the Brampton - Georgetown GO corridor from north of St Clair, but I doubt that there is any room left there after the recent round of GO track expansion.

However, you are right about the benefits of building the interchange between the DRL West and Bloor lines at Kele.

Dufferin is too close to university. I think the line will stay on Keele until rogers and then veer west when planned, as to not interrupt the UPX, like on the map, I don't think that would be as disruptive as using the entire rail corridor from Roncesvalles or Dufferin. I think the line is more relief for the Weston and Jane bus lines, plus Keele is the last busy station on the route, as the demand starts dropping from Dundas West.

By the time it is built, there will be Crosstown West and Finch West to feed to this line. The Keele to Jane/Weston to Jane North makes most sense to me.

I disagree that Jane/Bloor needs another subway. It's an area where development pressure is already too great. No big problem for people wishing to transfer to ride the three extra stops to Keele - that will get them where they are going just as well.

- Paul

Exactly.

There's one problem with the alignment: it would be very close to an aquifer. There's a reason why Spring Road in High Park is called such.

Seems tough to build the subway without the water being affected then.


My second issue is this. While I prefer Keele, Dundas West allows for the transfer to UPX faster then doing it at Mt Dennis. What do you guys think, is that a fair argument for Dundas West, the inter modal station being built?