Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[Palma]

yes. The Province listed the Crosstown LRT as $4.9 billion in 2010 dollars, but the actual contract signed was closer to $7 billion IIRC.

Its the same reason its not fair to compare the $3.2 billion cost to the $1.5 billion cost for the LRT option, as the LRT price tag is not escalated. The TTC published an estimated escalated cost of the LRT, and it was something like $2.5 billion. Supporters of the LRT called it bullcrap of course, refusing to believe those numbers. Apparently the LRT is immune from cost changes but the subway is possible to see infinite increases into the trillions.

Its why the original pricetag on the subway was so low, as it was in 2010 unescalated dollars for councillors to compare between the two projects. They switched to escalated dollars after the vote as that is how it is normally financed. TorStar with its vendetta against the project just ran with it making it seem like a huge cost escalation, while the truth was that it was really just an accounting change.

There has been a small "real" increase in costs, from $2.9 billion escalated to $3.2 billion escalated. There was an initial jump from $2 billion to $2.9 billion, which was the accounting change, then it went to $3.2 billion, which was a "real" cost overrun.

Besides, costing changes are expected at that stage as the cost estimates were extremely preliminary in those original decisions.

how stupid does one need to be to believe that an LRT would cost the same as a subway!

 

[innsertnamehere]

when the subway is 40% shorter and has 1/7th the stations, and is actually $700 million more, yea, I believe it.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Well, for one, it's still being designed.

Secondly, there's no point. It's not like the underground stations are going to be complete, sitting empty for months or years while they work on the at-grade segments. There's no point in starting the construction yet. It won't take all that long to build.

Don't agree. This is the problem with Toronto. All this should have been under construction by now.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Do the above ground stops have paved tracks? If yes, then could buses use those sections? I feel like it should have that functionally as emergency vehicles could use the ROW.

Is it a possibility for the project team to "forget" about the surface portion and delay the project? Resulting in increased costs.

 

[OneCity]

The east extension was supposed to be funded with the savings from watering down the previous 3-stop subway plan. But just one year later, the cost has gone up so much that the subway is on track to consume the entire budget for Scarborough transit. Meanwhile the mayor has other priorities like SmartTrack, Gardiner and RL, so at this point Crosstown East is about as likely to happen as Rail Deck Park.

I was referring to the above ground East and West portions of the current funded line and why they couldn't be working on them simultaneously with the central underground portions

But in regards to your concern.. I think the real issue is Scarborough like many other area of the City deserve a more appropriate budget.

 

[BurlOak]

Well, for one, it's still being designed.

Secondly, there's no point. It's not like the underground stations are going to be complete, sitting empty for months or years while they work on the at-grade segments. There's no point in starting the construction yet. It won't take all that long to build.

The reason it's still being designed is because of reason #2.

The underground portions take so long that they could completely redesign the Don Mills to Kennedy segment as elevated and the underground stations would still be on the critical path.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

just curious but does anyone know if the demolition of the pote office building by kennedy sation have anything to do with the crosstown line?

 

[Rainforest]

Let's remember 44,000 daily riders don't warrants a subway. Dufferin is quite crowded in most parts of the day. TTC has also reduced service (on paper) on the 29 with artics and additional round trip times. It is suppose to reflect actual travel times and more of the advertised service is operated.

Subways or underground LRT (which is still subway) should have at least 5,000 pph in rush hour. The Dufferin bus carries like 1200 pph which is no where near subway territory. Dufferin doesn't have a high chance of becoming a popular regional corridor either as the Spadina Line is more direct and already serve that purpose.

Subway would be an overkill if it was to serve local demand only. On the other hand, if we want to extend DRL west and north-west eventually, we will need to select a corridor. Dufferin is one of the reasonable choices.

Plus the Dufferin bus's demand is on local stops. Local meaning people like to get on or off on side streets. They can still be going to Bloor but they get on a side street stop meaning they'll prefer to travel on the surface. A subway on Dufferin is really not going to work.

The bus still would be there. The subway, if it went up Dufferin, would have stops every 1 km or even more; a parallel bus service would be a necessity. Furthermore, the subway would not even continue up Dufferin all the way to Wilson or Steeles, it would turn north-west at St Clair or at Eglinton.

But if the subway diverts the bulk of bus riders, then the buses would not be as crowded as they are today.

What the city needs to go is put in bus lanes.

This is next to impossible for much of Dufferin. Not only the street is narrow, 4 lanes with no space for left-turn lanes for much of its length, but owners of many houses along the route have no garages or driveways and therefore hold permits to park on the street. Effectively, the street is 2 or 3 lanes wide in some places, because the other lanes are used for parking. You can have 4+2 lanes north of Eglinton, but the buses are least busy there, so the overall improvement would be minimal.

 

[salsa]

I was referring to the above ground East and West portions of the current funded line and why they couldn't be working on them simultaneously with the central underground portions

But in regards to your concern.. I think the real issue is Scarborough like many other area of the City deserve a more appropriate budget.

I see. Aside from still being in design, the above ground portion are also quicker to build than the tunnelled section. If it gets built too early, then you end up with a reduction of traffic lanes for an LRT ROW that could be sitting empty for a while before the tunnelled section is complete. Meanwhile bus service on Eglinton will still exist in mixed traffic, minus some road capacity until the LRT is operational. It's probably best if the duration of this phase be minimized as much as possible.

 

[OneCity]

I see. Aside from still being in design, the above ground portion are also quicker to build than the tunnelled section. If it gets built too early, then you end up with a reduction of traffic lanes for an LRT ROW that could be sitting empty for a while before the tunnelled section is complete. Meanwhile bus service on Eglinton will still exist in mixed traffic, minus some road capacity until the LRT is operational. It's probably best if the duration of this phase be minimized as much as possible.

A well planned construction sequence could solve the overlap to ensure minimal dwell time without operation. I imagine if they started now that time would be minimal. In any event its not happening as its in design and im not sure how good that is given our Politicians records of playing with the details of designs. This could end up causing another delay. Lets hope not

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I was referring to the above ground East and West portions of the current funded line and why they couldn't be working on them simultaneously with the central underground portions

But in regards to your concern.. I think the real issue is Scarborough like many other area of the City deserve a more appropriate budget.

I see. Aside from still being in design, the above ground portion are also quicker to build than the tunnelled section. If it gets built too early, then you end up with a reduction of traffic lanes for an LRT ROW that could be sitting empty for a while before the tunnelled section is complete. Meanwhile bus service on Eglinton will still exist in mixed traffic, minus some road capacity until the LRT is operational. It's probably best if the duration of this phase be minimized as much as possible.

A well planned construction sequence could solve the overlap to ensure minimal dwell time without operation. I imagine if they started now that time would be minimal. In any event its not happening as its in design and im not sure how good that is given our Politicians records of playing with the details of designs. This could end up causing another delay. Lets hope not

I agree with onecity. We say that salsa, and then the rest of the line never gets built under the new government (see sheppard, all of transit city, soon to be Yonge North). Start it now. And run in portions until the entire line is completed. Enough with waiting 10 years for everything. The line is needed in full yesterday.

 

[Leo_Chan]

I agree with onecity. We say that salsa, and then the rest of the line never gets built under the new government (see sheppard, all of transit city, soon to be Yonge North). Start it now. And run in portions until the entire line is completed. Enough with waiting 10 years for everything. The line is needed in full yesterday.

More like last decade.

 

[Voltz]

I agree with onecity. We say that salsa, and then the rest of the line never gets built under the new government (see sheppard, all of transit city, soon to be Yonge North). Start it now. And run in portions until the entire line is completed. Enough with waiting 10 years for everything. The line is needed in full yesterday.

The first phase of Eglinton, from Eglinton West to Martin Grove, was originally planned to have been opened by now back when it was first funded, McGuinty, and Wynn as Transportation Minister, then later cut the line back and delayed the rest of it to finish at the same time as the last phase to save a few bucks.

They also delayed and cut back the Scarborough LRT, and if that had not happened then it also would have been open by now and this Scarborough Subway garbage would never have happened,

It was the beginning of the current round of flip flopping, delays, deferments, vote pandering and cancellations.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Let's see if I have my history in order for this round of transit planning

- City of Toronto announces Transit City, including the Eglinton LRT from Pearson to Kennedy

- McGunity government cancels Eglinton West LRT and delays the rest of Transit City, infuriating then-mayor David Miller.

- Planning continues for the remainder of Eglinton, Finch and Sheppard LRTs, and preliminary construction for Sheppard LRT begins

- Anti-LRT Ford comes to power. He requests, without the permission of Council (the people who actually run this city), for Transit City to be canceled. McGuinty happily obliges.

- Toronto City Council says "lol nah" to cancelling Transit City, and notifies the McGunity Government that the City of Toronto sill supports the project, despite the objections of the mayor

- The McGuinty government un-cancels, but delays implementation Transit City

- Crosstown LRT is delayed by another year by Metrolinx

- Toronto decides it doesn't want to build the Scarborough LRT, but opts for the Scarborough Subway Extension instead. Scarborough LRT is canceled.

- The Wynne Government effectively cancels the Sheppard East LRT

- Toronto discovers that Scarborough Subway is too expensive to build, and shortens the extension

- Toronto decides to continue building out parts of the original Transit City plan, including Crosstown West and Malvern LRT.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The Province listed the Crosstown LRT as $4.9 billion in 2010 dollars, but the actual contract signed was closer to $7 billion IIRC.

Didn't that $7 Billion contract also include the maintenance contract for Eglinton Line? So it wasn't just the capital costs included?