Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[ksun]

LOL!!! Now who didn't see that coming?

This is something that has 99.5% chance to happen, and there is 99.5% chance it will be further delayed. Did anyone actually expect to take this LRT in 2020?
I predict 2023.
What is sadder? We all consider it absolutely normal and no one is even slighted angry or anything.

I can't see how anyone wouldn't be impressed at Metrolinx for changing the opening date so little.

Like usual, you are always positive and upbeat about anything happening in Toronto, including delays.

 

[Tuscani01]

Well, there goes the ability to show this off as a successful P3 project.

 

[nfitz]

Well, there goes the ability to show this off as a successful P3 project.

In what way? Four years of delay to get to construction, but only 5 years from start of station construction to opening instead of eight? Surely this IS the way a P3 shines. Yes, there are other issues ... but now we've got to the financial close, then it's all hands on deck.

 

[Tuscani01]

In what way? Four years of delay to get to construction, but only 5 years from start of station construction to opening instead of eight? Surely this IS the way a P3 shines. Yes, there are other issues ... but now we've got to the financial close, then it's all hands on deck.

One of the big selling points of going the P3 route is the ability to deliver projects within budget, and on time. The on-time benefit is now out the window. I wouldn't be surprised if the budget is also increased as a result of the schedule change.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

One of the big selling points of going the P3 route is the ability to deliver projects within budget, and on time. The on-time benefit is now out the window. I wouldn't be surprised if the budget is also increased as a result of the schedule change.

I wouldn't blame P3 necessarily - this probably a case of taking too much time to sign the contract than actual delays in construction. Frankly, the way the project was procured is kind of a head scratcher - you start building the tunnel without even having the station coming close to being designed, and then go out there and look for a private consortium to do the DBM. The whole thing was dragged out beyond recognition.

AoD

 

[Tuscani01]

I wouldn't blame P3 necessarily - this probably a case of taking too much time to sign the contract than actual delays in construction. Frankly, the way the project was procured is kind of a head scratcher - you start building the tunnel without even having the station coming close to being designed, and then go out there and look for a private consortium to do the DBM. The whole thing was dragged out beyond recognition.

AoD

I'm not blaming the P3 process. I actually support the P3 process. This delay will just provide fodder for those who fight the P3 process, especially when infrastructure Ontario has been so proud to announce it was ahead of schedule up until this point.

Which also makes me wonder... where did all of that time go? Moving the TBM over?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I'm not blaming the P3 process. I actually support the P3 process. This delay will just provide fodder for those who fight the P3 process, especially when infrastructure Ontario has been so proud to announce it was ahead of schedule up until this point.

Which also makes me wonder... where did all of that time go? Moving the TBM over?

Just look at the current process - beyond the fact that the construction was artificially divided into tunneling and station/trackage phase, is there any fundamental reason why station building cannot take place at the same time as tunneling, in a staggered fashion?

AoD

 

[Tuscani01]

Just look at the current process - beyond the fact that the construction was artificially divided into tunneling and station/trackage phase, is there any fundamental reason why station building cannot take place at the same time as tunneling, in a staggered fashion?

AoD

Agreed. Also, why isn't construction on the surface portion starting yet? Surely, they could be building surface portions while the tunnels are taking shape, and then redirect manpower to the tunnels once complete to build the tracks and stations there.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Agreed. Also, why isn't construction on the surface portion starting yet? Surely, they could be building surface portions while the tunnels are taking shape, and then redirect manpower to the tunnels once complete to build the tracks and stations there.

Exactly - in fact you can have an almost quasi-assembly line type of arrangement, where one crew would work on digging out the station box, move on to the next station that the TBM just passed through, while a new crew work on the concrete works, etc. The current arrangement is incredibly inefficient, and half of it is waiting.

AoD

 

[Tulse]

Doesn't all the dug out material have to travel down the length of the tunnel, including through the station boxes? And don't the tunnel lining sections have to move up the length of the tunnel to the diggers, again through the station boxes? How could other work take place in the tunnel?

 

[wopchop]

Just look at the current process - beyond the fact that the construction was artificially divided into tunneling and station/trackage phase, is there any fundamental reason why station building cannot take place at the same time as tunneling, in a staggered fashion?

AoD

I wouldn't call this artificial at all. Dividing super mega projects into smaller bundled packages will significantly ease the bidding process and increase the competitiveness of the bids. If you tender a project too large, you run the risk of creating a project that almost no one can take on financially. Bidders are aware of this, and the price will reflect that.

 

[TransitPolicyChanger]

I wouldn't call this artificial at all. Dividing super mega projects into smaller bundled packages will significantly ease the bidding process and increase the competitiveness of the bids. If you tender a project too large, you run the risk of creating a project that almost no one can take on financially. Bidders are aware of this, and the price will reflect that.

Spreading the money out and wanting to open the line as a whole is the only reason station construction hasn't already started on the western leg of the line (Eglinton West to Black Creek) - with the tunnel in and TBM's out (for this portion), station excavation can safely start. All of the tendering could have easily been completed for this portion of the route as it connects directly to the maintenance and storage facility (also not yet started).

With this plan they should not start on the on-grade portions, as you will effectively be reducing the number of lanes on Eglinton East for no reason (i.e. 2 lanes used with no benefit) and would make transit even worse.

Ultimately this delay, along with the, in my opinion, originally long schedule to complete this project is a result of cash flow from the Province so indirectly Metrolinx - not P3.

 

[TransitPolicyChanger]

Doesn't all the dug out material have to travel down the length of the tunnel, including through the station boxes? And don't the tunnel lining sections have to move up the length of the tunnel to the diggers, again through the station boxes? How could other work take place in the tunnel?

The material doesn't travel through the station boxes exactly - as only the headwalls are in place. The TBMs tunnel right through these. When they dig the stations out they will remove the sections of tunnel liners which were installed through this area. But right now we have a completed section of tunnel (Black Creek to Allen Road) which means they could have easily started the process for other work relating to the stations.

 

[wopchop]

Spreading the money out and wanting to open the line as a whole is the only reason station construction hasn't already started on the western leg of the line (Eglinton West to Black Creek) - with the tunnel in and TBM's out (for this portion), station excavation can safely start. All of the tendering could have easily been completed for this portion of the route as it connects directly to the maintenance and storage facility (also not yet started).

With this plan they should not start on the on-grade portions, as you will effectively be reducing the number of lanes on Eglinton East for no reason (i.e. 2 lanes used with no benefit) and would make transit even worse.

Ultimately this delay, along with the, in my opinion, originally long schedule to complete this project is a result of cash flow from the Province so indirectly Metrolinx - not P3.

All good points, as well. I'm not saying that what I said is the only factor, but to say it isn't a factor in tendering large projects is wrong IMO.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I wouldn't call this artificial at all. Dividing super mega projects into smaller bundled packages will significantly ease the bidding process and increase the competitiveness of the bids. If you tender a project too large, you run the risk of creating a project that almost no one can take on financially. Bidders are aware of this, and the price will reflect that.

I understand that aspect - but what I am saying is that there is no reason why the two phases of construction can't overlap, not that everything has to be covered by a single contract.

AoD