Toronto/Chicago comparisons

[CityPainter]

Having relatives (and a couple of friends) living in Chicago makes a difference in how I view the city. You can be easily taken in by the powerful architecture downtown and by the Magnificent Mile, but when you hear some personal comments by Chicagoans, you start to think that the downtown is just a big show.

I feel Toronto comes up nicely in a comparison. The downtown may not look at all like Chicago, but the areas surrounding downtown Toronto are liveble, vibrant, and have actually never really been abandoned.

I visited Chicago about 8 years ago, and I remember I really liked it but after three days I really felt I had "seen" everything the average visitor would want to see. The waterfront pier was nice, the architecture in the downtown was great, I wandered Wicker Park, rode on the Loop, etc. But whenever we hit the "edge" of those areas this declined rapidly, and we were repeatedly told that certain areas were complete no-go zones for safety reasons. If I went back, I know I'd pretty much end up visiting the same places again.

Now clearly since I am much more familiar with Toronto than Chicago I know about more places to see, but even so, the "good" and "interesting" areas in Toronto seem to cover much more ground and to be much more numerous than in Chicago. You could walk Queen St from the Beaches to the end of Parkdale and with the exception of a few somewhat dull stretches, the entirety would be quite urban, diverse, and safe. It would pass through many pretty distinct neighbourhoods (Beaches, Leslieville, Corktown, St. Lawrence, Financial District, Queen West, West Queen West, Parkdale.)

Would it make sense to generalize all the generalizations above and say that perhaps Toronto and Chicago have similar amounts of wealth, but Toronto has spread it around more, while Chicago has concentrated it all in one area? So while our downtown is not as visually stunning at a glance, we also don't have the extreme urban decay opposite, either. Sure we have poorer and "at risk" neighbourhoods but they don't jump out so much and most people could wander through them without really even realizing it.

I like many things about Toronto but a few things that I am not a fan of are quite big (and are negatively impacting my life) and hence my comparison to Chicago (an American city that I feel is fairly close to Toronto overall).

You posted a very honest and thoughtfully written opinion. I'd have to agree with others who point out that maybe your concerns are as much about your perspective as about the city itself: some places just don't work for some people. I've been to cities I loved at first sight (NYC, London) and others I couldn't wait to leave even though they were perfectly "nice" on the surface (Budapest). It's an odd thing. If you're not happy here you shouldn't feel like you have to force it: move on! Who knows, maybe you'll find yourself back here in a decade and decide you've changed your mind. It's happened to friends of mine.

Also, it could be that I've lived in Toronto too long, but I really don't see people as that unfriendly here. I have amiable encounters with both strangers and acquaintances every day, and I'm not particularly ebullient or outgoing. I guess a bit of solitude or privacy just doesn't bother me much: if someone is lost in thought (or their book or their headphones) I don't take it personal or as a sign of unfriendliness. In a big city you sometimes just have to make your own virtual space to maintain some sanity. A lack of returning calls could just be a factor of people being overwhelmed with a lot of contacts each day.

But I can see how someone from a smaller town or city who's used to more forthright sociability could interpret things like that as unfriendliness. On the other hand, I might feel suffocated in a place where everyone I met treated me like a long lost relative! But again, that's my personal perspective coming into play. Good luck! If nothing else, you should be able to cash in on your condo value if you sell now

 

[steveve]

i give up on this thread.... some of the comments are just WAAAAY too long! lol!
My conclusion
Chicago for looks
Toronto for living,

 

[Torontovibe]

Take a little tour of this central, west side, Chicago neighbourhood and compare this with what's happening in Regent Park. This neighbourhood, is located near downtown Chicago, just beside some of it's wealthiest areas.
[video]http://youtu.be/75fz6iU8r6k[/video]
The fact that middle-class people in Toronto, will buy new condos right beside TCHC government housing, is a huge plus in Toronto. It means that all areas of the city are up for future redevelopment and there are opportunities to change sketchier neighbourhoods into good ones. We don't have huge areas that are undevelopable and just left to decay. For a growing city like Toronto, that's a huge plus.

Read some of the comments on the video to hear what Chicago people think. It's quite interesting.


And one more of the rougher west side of central Chicago.
[video]http://youtu.be/X13NjDuYoQo[/video]

 

[Torontovibe]

Flash mobs on lakefront, a threat to Chicago's economy.

It seems crime is moving to the wealthier parts of Chicago and people are beginning to take note.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/sneed/...on-lakefront-a-threat-to-chicago-economy.html
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...rn-about-mob-action-attacks-20110604,0,787845



STORY: Victim of downtown teen mob: 'It was broad daylight'


At least seven people thought to be part of the group were arrested Saturday in connection with the robberies and mob action, a crime that has become a problem in Streeterville, the Gold Coast and the Magnificent Mile, authorities said.

Five youths were charged early Monday in connection with a series of robbery events that occurred about 8:30 p.m. Saturday in the area of the Chicago Avenue and Lake Shore Drive, police said.

Dvonte Sykes, 17, of the 7500 block of South Normal Avenue was charged with two felony counts of robbery and one count of mob action violence to person and property.

Two 16-year-old boys also were charged in a juvenile delinquency petition for the same incident. One boy was charged with a felony count of robbery and one count of mob action violence to person and property, police said. The other boy was charged with one count of misdemeanor theft, control of stolen property of less than $300 and mob action. The youths were not named because they are juveniles.

Two other youths, Trovolus Pickett, 17 and Derodte Wright, 18, were charged in connection with a robbery on the 300 block of East Chicago Avenue, police said.

Pickett of the 8400 block of South Dorchester Avenue was charged with three felony counts of robbery, this includes the robbery committed on the North Lake Shore Drive. Wright of the 3500 block of South State Street was charged with one count of felony robbery for the incident on East Chicago Avenue, police said.

In mid-May, Chicago police started implementing strategies to address mob action incidents, which are often coordinated via text messages or social networking websites, in downtown and neighborhoods near it. Police said the youths in many cases come downtown using mass transit.

 

[nfitz]

Flash mobs on lakefront, a threat to Chicago's economy.

Flash mobs are a crime? Oh no, a huge pillow fight!

 

[Jonny5]

I think flash mobs were a thing in Philly recently. Sometimes several hundred kids show up who just proceed to start smashing stuff and robbing everyone.

 

[Tewder]

As somebody here mentioned Chicago has already had its heyday and much of what we love about it is a reflection of that history. Toronto really hasn't had one yet. We haven't even hosted a major international event, and TIFF is probably a little too 'specialized' to be considered as such. In this sense I'm a little less concerned about how we compare to Chicago now, than how we are shaping ourselves up for 'greatness' in the future. A lack of vision, a lack of identity and Toronto's inveterate apathy may always make us a somewhat second rate city, or as most here are saying a great place to live and work but not necessarily a place to go out of your way for...

To be positive about all this, however, I don't think many of us would be so enamoured by the idea of an Urban Toronto if we didn't have such hope for and take such excitement in the potential we see around us all the time. Most of us here sense on some level that it really wouldn't take much to make Toronto a celebrated first-rate city once we shake ourselves up and resolve some long-standing issues. I really can't think of too many other cities in North America that express this degree of potential. Maybe Calgary? Maybe we feel this about Canada in general? Regardless, we need the optimism to embrace this potential and make the Toronto of the future a place where people come and feel that they are somewhere unique that they wouldn't see or experience anywhere else... just as we feel when we go to Chicago now!

 

[Torontovibe]

I was reading an article about why people swim in Chicago's beaches but not Toronto's. The article focused mainly on water quality and not much else. I always though water temperature was a problem, so I was curious to see if Chicago's water temperature was warmer than ours and my suspicion was right. The surface lakefront temperature in Toronto today is 66f and in Chicago it's 74f. I don't know if that's a big enough difference to really matter but it could be a factor. I hear many people complain about the water being too cold in Lake Ontario.

I personally think the condition of the beach and the sand have a lot to do with it. I'm not impressed with any of the beaches in Toronto. I think they all could use an upgrade and redesign. If Toronto wants to have beaches that stand out, it needs to focus more on design and supplying all the activities and amenities that go along with a great beach. In this regard, Chicago seems to do a much better job.

Who's beaches are cleaner? I don't know. Does anybody have that info? Is Lake Michigan cleaner than Lake Ontario, generally?

OK, I just found this info (below) but how does it compare to Toronto and if it is true, why do people swim in Chicago and not here?

I also found out that Chicago's waterfront runs for 26 miles and Toronto's runs for 30 miles.





Report: Chicago’s Lake Michigan beaches have poor water quality
BY Darryl Holliday Sun-Times Media June 29, 2011 11:04PM
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Updated: June 30, 2011 2:10AM

Illinois beaches along Lake Michigan have the sixth-worst water quality in the country, according to a study released Wednesday by the Natural Resources Defence Council.

“Testing the Waters 2011” ranked the quality of Illinois’ beach water 26th out of 31 states sampled for quality along the Great Lakes and East and West coasts.

“The news is not good,” said Karen Hobbs, the group’s senior policy analyst and a former deputy director with Chicago’s environment department.

Of a reported 61 coastal beaches and beach segments in Illinois, Cook County’s Winnetka Elder Park Beach and Winnetka Centennial Dog Beach were the most often contaminated in 2010, the report found. The worst city beaches include South Shore, Rainbow, Jackson Park (also known as 63rd Street Beach), Montrose and 31st Street.

Nationwide, the report found that beach closures and advisories increased by 29 percent in 2010 compared to a year earlier. The conservation group used data from about 3,000 locations nationwide and found that waters in Louisiana, Ohio, Indiana and Michigan had the highest levels of contamination.

The Great Lakes have the most frequently contaminated beach water, with bacteria exceeding public health standards almost twice as often as coastal beaches, according to the report.

It says 15 percent of the Great Lakes shorelines exceeded those standards in 2010, up 2 percent from the previous year, while only 4 to 8 percent of U.S. coastal states exceeded standards for bacteria.

 

[Torontovibe]

"Toronto, capital of cool"

It must be true, I read it on the net.

http://www.toronto-is-cool.com/Distillery-District.html

 

[Long Island Mike]

Toronto/Chicago Comparisons-the two largest Great Lakes cities...

Everyone: This is an interesting topic comparing Toronto with Chicago-the two largest cities in the Great Lakes region...

The City of Chicago has lost population but the region surrounding it has grown substantially and Toronto grew with the 6 Borough unification of the late 90s...

Both cities have great Downtown and central city areas...but the neighborhoods-the backbone of both cities-are in many ways quite different...

It amazed me to learn for example how different the North Side was compared with the S and SW Side I was more knowledgeable with...

I was a regular visitor to the SW Side of Chicago between 1973 and 1988 - my teens and 20s - when I had relatives living there...in the vicinity of W. 79th Street (7900 S.) and S. Kedzie Avenue (3200 W.)

My Uncle was a CTA Train Operator (Motorman) and thanks to my interest in railroading and rail transit learned much about the CTA and local Commuter Rail services like the current
METRA SWS Service...The Wrightwood Station at W. 79th Street and S. Kedzie Avenue was nearby...

I had to learn things about the City-like the unwritten but adhered to code of racial segregation and where the racial "Dividing Lines" were...such as Western Avenue (2400 W.)
which is not only Chicago's longest continuous N/S street but also was a "dividing Line" for much of my visiting days in the SW Side area...

Chicago's map layout was easy to learn because usually eight long blocks equalled one mile and primary streets were located one mile apart...secondary streets every half mile...

A great example of this is Midway Airport (MDW) on the SW Side which was just a couple of miles away from my relatives area is exactly one square mile in size...

The neighborhoods of the SW Side were loaded with "Chicago Bungalows" especially to the N of my relatives' neighborhood
(SEE: www.chicagobungalow.org) and my relatives lived in a 50s era developed neighborhood...
Does Toronto have similar neighborhoods with housing of this type?

Since 1990 the neighborhood my relatives lived in has changed and become predominantly Black...
I recall that one neighbor in particular I recall predicted back in the 70s that that would happen...
I disagreed then but after visiting that area in the Summer of 2000 I saw that it has indeed happened...

From reading things written here it seems that some think that all of the S side is bad but some Chicago neighborhoods are very solid and stable...
I will mention the Mount Greenwood neighborhood on the far SW Side...which is loaded with Police Officers and Firefighters and other City workers...
which because of residency laws must live inside the City of Chicago...
Thanks to this M.G. is arguably one of Chicago's most stable neighborhoods...

I noticed that someone posted Chicago real estate listings-in that case it pays to learn the exact neighborhood where the listings are and what the racial makeup of that neighborhood is...

I also noticed that when people moved out of the City of Chicago to the suburbs they moved out to suburbs in proximity to their previous neighborhoods...
I noticed that people I remember moved to towns like Oak Lawn,Chicago Ridge and Orland Park as proximity examples...

I have found over time how bland many of the Chicago suburbs - especially recently developed ones - are and I do prefer the City neighborhoods-especially
those with the "Chicago Bungalow" style...

At one point I considered relocating and looking for a home in Chicago when my relatives were still there...but it never panned out and I stayed here in the East...

Also see:
www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org

I found Chicago's politics somewhat interesting-and how the Chicagoland Region dominated politics in Illinois...
That 6-county region (Cook,Lake,McHenry,Kane,DuPage and Will Counties) has 2/3rds of the entire population of Illinois...
Cook County (Includes the City of Chicago) alone has 40 percent of the entire State's population and is the 2nd largest County in population in the US...
Only Los Angeles County,California is larger...

Toronto - from what I have learned here from my UT membership - does not dominate Ontario in that manner but has an adversarial relationship with
other cities and regions in the Province...

Thoughts and Memories from Long Island Mike

 

[Tewder]

Well, neighbourhoods in Toronto and surrounding areas are not exactly as 'desegregated' as you might think. The racial lines exist here as well but we are too caught up in our own propaganda bullshite to recognize it.

... and is there any doubt whatsoever that Chicago blows Toronto away in terms of food? Toronto is just about the worst major city for food, imo. Yes, there are some good places but they are generally overpriced and few and far between.

 

[Thanos]

... and is there any doubt whatsoever that Chicago blows Toronto away in terms of food? Toronto is just about the worst major city for food, imo. Yes, there are some good places but they are generally overpriced and few and far between.

I have to completely disagree with you. The food here is great just like any other major city.

 

[Tewder]

... yes, there are some good places obviously but not of the breadth and depth of other cities I visit. It's more 'destination' dining in Toronto. There isn't a tradition of great unpretentious reasonably priced neighbourhood food... as far as I have found anyway. Please let me know where I can go and stumble into somewhere decent that doesn't have a line-up of hipsters out front clutching their dining issue of Toronto Life.

 

[Thanos]

Everyone has different tastes. The food i like might not be what you like and vice versa.
I've lived in Montreal, been to NY, San Fran, Boston, Chicago, several European cities, and the food here is just as good and in certain cases even better. However, Toronto did have terrible restaurants back in the 80s early 90s.
There's a certain group of people in Toronto that seem to enjoy putting the city down. I'm not saying you're one of them. But they just don't realize how good they have it here. I think the only way they will realize it is by packing up and moving elsewhere and then compare. Just visiting a city is not enough to make a valid comparison.

 

[Tewder]

Now wait a second, being honest about one's opinion is not 'putting the city down'. I love Toronto... but hey, the food sucks, imo... and again, this is not to say I haven't had a great meal here, only that it stands out when I do get one and usually have to pay through the nose for it. It's very hit and miss in Toronto whereas you can stumble backwards into holes in the wall in any of those cities you mentioned and get great cooking at a reasonable price. Again, i'm not talking about celebu-chef restaurants but even then I've been in some of the best in NYC and Chicago and paid less than what I'd pay at Milestones in Toronto. No kidding. Go to those places and you will eat well and at a fraction of the cost.