Toronto/Chicago comparisons

[ahmad.m.atiya]

what do you expect??? It's Gotham City? (lol... i don't know how true that is about the corruption thing... but if it is, i never knew that)

and Chicago isn't a dead city. There are plenty of year round city events that take place at Navy Pier, Millennium Park, etc... as well as it being a big sports city (with teams that are actually decent)

BTW:
How can you guys not dig Chicago's gold coast?!?! toronto has nothing like it!

I do love those places as well, but as a resident of Chicago (for 2 months now), I must tell you that life in this city is not as impressive as a tourist's impression (unfortunately).

here's Chicago's city population (not including metro):
1950............3,620,962
1960............3,550,404
1970............3,366,957
1980............3,005,072
1990............2,783,726
2000............2,896,016
2010............2,695,598

Toronto has nearly caught up to Chicago's current population, where it would have been dwarfed by its 1950's population. Why am I posting this? To quantify the observation that the city is just not lively. The population has decreased by about 1 million people, and yet they've added countless new buildings in the same period

From personal experience: As a tourist, I loved Chicago. As a resident, I'm counting down the days I have until I move back to Toronto. Overall, I'm very disappointed with this city's prioritization (improve the best areas, neglect the worst areas ).

 

[Translude15]

Ahmad's points are absolutely spot on. I have family outside of Chi-Town so I have been many, many times. Travel a few miles from downtown to the South Side, and that area (although gentrification efforts are being made) is scarier than anything you'll ever see in Toronto. This is based on observations made during daylight I might add. I was attending a convention at McCormick place in 2007 and a group of us decided to check out White Castle which was about a ten minute walk. I can tell you that I didn't feel very safe even during the day. The poverty concentration in Chicago is absolutely astounding.

I'm not sure of the exact statistics but back in the late 1980's and early 1990's, Chicago was getting upwards of 900 homicides per year. Yes, 900. Toronto's all-time high is like 91 I believe. I mean yes downtown Chicago and the waterfront are impressive but there are numerous underlying social and racial problems within that city which make it far inferior to Toronto. Only time will tell how they are resolved.

 

[steveve]

Lol, the Cubs are decent?

lol.... I had the Bulls in mind, they had an amazing season this year,

 

[taal]

Ahmad's points are absolutely spot on. I have family outside of Chi-Town so I have been many, many times. Travel a few miles from downtown to the South Side, and that area (although gentrification efforts are being made) is scarier than anything you'll ever see in Toronto. This is based on observations made during daylight I might add. I was attending a convention at McCormick place in 2007 and a group of us decided to check out White Castle which was about a ten minute walk. I can tell you that I didn't feel very safe even during the day. The poverty concentration in Chicago is absolutely astounding.

I'm not sure of the exact statistics but back in the late 1980's and early 1990's, Chicago was getting upwards of 900 homicides per year. Yes, 900. Toronto's all-time high is like 91 I believe. I mean yes downtown Chicago and the waterfront are impressive but there are numerous underlying social and racial problems within that city which make it far inferior to Toronto. Only time will tell how they are resolved.

If your arguments are that Chicago has terrible areas that know one ever visits unfortunately this is a rather mute point for both tourist and residents a like. Though of course it has social ramifications these neighhourboods are simply no-go zones ... Toronto has these as well as we all know ... the difference is, Toronto's no-go zones are relatively very safe.

If your argument is Chicago has less vibrant neighborhoods on a whole though it's downtown is pertinence / prominent that's a fair point.


I'm not a big fan of the gold cost, just as I'm not a big fan of our beaches (and there you go there's our variant). Though to be clear I am a big fan of the beach neighborhood i.e. Queen street.


Here's another point. By far Chicago has far less residential buildings in and around the core. Also, to be clear, there's some terrible terrible architecture in Chicago, and a lot of this is near the water ...... so I don't understand agree with the comment that in recent years (i.e. the last 10/15) we have much to learn from them. Yes there are a couple exceptions both ways in terms of this.

 

[Southcore]

FYI, Chicago has an inferiority complex too. It's all about New York. And frankly, we think we won't return to Chicago. If we are going to spend travel $, we will spend those $ in Manhattan. The difference is sex appeal; New York has it, Chicago doesn't have it. There is something about the midwest thing that just ain't sexy.

The locals are big, they all wear blue jeans ... but man, are they ever nice people.N

Having been there for a week a month ago I wholeheartedly agree with this. Also, to Ahmad's point, downtown/loop seems to be quite dead after work hours. Seems like a lot of people commute in from not just the burbs, but from Indianapolis and Wisonsin (maybe some truth to those 'Illannoyed by high taxes? Move to Indianaopolis' billboards). Way less people seem to live in the city core too, compared to here, making it seem like less hustle/bustle than here at night anyway

With that said, I liken CHI to a gorgeous airhead supermodel: 10/10 for looks, 3/10 for personality/intangibles. Of the biggest cities in NA it is the best looking in my opinion though, no question.

As for as much crap TO has traditionally got (as well as lately with a new crop of articles on this topic by the Globe, TorontoStandard and NOW) as being 'no fun' 'uptight/cold', I personally find TO to be more fun than CHI. Now that's my opinion as a 'visible minority'...as a gay member previously mentioned, CHI seems to have more in terms of gay nightclubs and the like so I guess it's depends on one's lifestyle/scene. The ethnic flavour of TO is it's greatest strength in my opinion. Having spent extensive time NY and London, even those cities have to be envious of us in that regard.

Alas, this isn't a site about sociology, and to bring it back to the original question of Trump TO vs Trump CHI, CHI's tower wins hands down. Also, as mentioned by more than one person, if we could get their tree-lined sidewalks all over the core of TO that'd be amazing.

 

[steveve]

LOL!!! we have an official thread now...
let the war begin!!!!

i will say that Chicago has less culture/multicultural stuff such as neighbourhoods/celebrations, but it does "look" nicer than Toronto for the most part. Yonge street can look like a slum compared to many of Chicago's downtown streets (Wacker Drive for example)

EDIT:
I just found this amazing photograph:
look at the bridges across Chicago River!!!!!

http://www.willpearson.co.uk/studio_blog/images/chicago_skyline_360_teaser.jpg

 

[nfitz]

i have never been to chicago so i cant give an opinion... but can you guys give me say a list of all the things that chicago has that beats toronto... im curious, from subway system to parks, to roads etc... just to get the overall understanding

Last time I was in Chicago, I was warned (in good faith) by some locals that I shouldn't travel on their subway past a particular station, as a person of my skin colour would be in mortal danger.

Does that beat Toronto? I walk (never mind the relative security of a train!) near Flemingdon Park, Jane/Finch, and Regent Park at night, and never felt a concern.

Any comparison of a city should look at the worst, in addition to the best. How a city treats it's poor is a good indication of the character of it's people.

 

[scott]

I don't mind comparing cities, but you really can't compare aspects that are closely tied to their history.

When people talk about the architecture and buildings of NYC and Chicago, they're usually talking about their older heritage type buildings (or at least that's a big part of it).

Rough populations ~ 1900
New York City - 3.6 million
Chicago: 1.7 million
Toronto: 200k

There's a reason why Toronto has to destroy our old buildings in order to grow: our heritage buildings are short and small. NYC and Chicago have it much easier since their old buildings already fit in with their densities.

Toronto is much more modern city and it will NEVER compare to Chicago and NYC in a lot of ways. And that's mostly because of its history which we can't do anything about.

 

[MDV3]

what are the "bad" neighbourhoods in chicago?... i heard "southside" was pretty horrible... what would the boundaries be for that area?... i 've seen a few pictures of directly west of chicago and it looked more run down than anywhere i've seen in Toronto....... seems weird... the cities that get all this attention and recogniton worldwide have a terrile behind the scenes life... so fortunate we live in Canada... we honestly do live like kings

 

[steveve]

Great cities (famous/big ones) all have their own bad areas (or their version of... in other words, their own slums).... New York, Los Angeles, Shanghai, etc....

and yeah, American cities have more of those "avoid these" areas than Canadian cities of course. it's night and day. Even Jane and Finch doesn't approach anything like "a bad area" in a big US city. so i think we can rule that out of the argument.

Chicago is a city of looks
Toronto a city of heart... Though from a skyscraper, urbanist, etc... geek POV, Chicago is where it's at.... Toronto will never look that good in film nor in photograph,
In argument, from a skyscraper/urbanist POV, Toronto is a hotspot for development, whereas Chicago is already a very developed city in terms of density.

 

[ahmad.m.atiya]

Great cities (famous/big ones) all have their own bad areas (or their version of... in other words, their own slums).... New York, Los Angeles, Shanghai, etc....

and yeah, American cities have more of those "avoid these" areas than Canadian cities of course. it's night and day. Even Jane and Finch doesn't approach anything like "a bad area" in a big US city. so i think we can rule that out of the argument.

Chicago is a city of looks
Toronto a city of heart... Though from a skyscraper, urbanist, etc... geek POV, Chicago is where it's at.... Toronto will never look that good in film nor in photograph,
In argument, from a skyscraper/urbanist POV, Toronto is a hotspot for development, whereas Chicago is already a very developed city in terms of density.

Though I do agree that chicago has more/better skyscrapers in the downtown (though the gap is closing much faster than I ever thought possible), Toronto is a much more "urban" city in my opinion. Living in Chicago has shown me how suburban the city really is. Aside from downtown, there are literally almost ZERO clusters of urbanity, and this is clearly shown by Toronto's huge high rise lead over chicago (1 865 vs. 1 125 buildings). Chicago's downtown is certainly very dense and urban, but it is also important to note that it is not lively at all. Nearly every worker there commutes from a house in the suburbs. In fact, I would love to see the percentage of new home sales in Chicago in terms of single dwellings vs. multi-unit buildings. I believe slightly >50% of Toronto's new house sales have been high rise condos in recent years (correct me if I'm mistaken).

Chicago may have several advantages over Toronto, but urbanity is definitely NOT one of them.

what are the "bad" neighbourhoods in chicago?... i heard "southside" was pretty horrible... what would the boundaries be for that area?... i 've seen a few pictures of directly west of chicago and it looked more run down than anywhere i've seen in Toronto....... seems weird... the cities that get all this attention and recogniton worldwide have a terrile behind the scenes life... so fortunate we live in Canada... we honestly do live like kings

Definitely agree with you there, and that is exactly why I love our beautiful country

 

[steveve]

hands down, i'd rather have an amazing downtown core, than a mediocre one with booming suburbs (like Toronto)... The definition/epicness of what it means to be a Downtown Core has become lost in the GTA with booming suburbs (NYCC, Yonge/Eglington; i know it's not a suburb, but booming nonetheless).

Downtown is where it's at

 

[taal]

hands down, i'd rather have an amazing downtown core, than a mediocre one with booming suburbs (like Toronto)... The definition/epicness of what it means to be a Downtown Core has become lost in the GTA with booming suburbs (NYCC, Yonge/Eglington; i know it's not a suburb, but booming nonetheless).

Downtown is where it's at

But why is Chicago booming ? There is no where near the ammout of residential construction as there is in downtown Toronto alone. It just so happens that many other parts of the GTA are also booming aka. Y&E/NYCC/SCC/MCC/Downtown Markham/Yonge North of Steels now/more to come/...

Though I personally agree I'd rather all development take place downtown selfish I know ... but it just doesn't happen that way.

Chicago is booming or you can argue it is in terms of all the great spending taking place to build parks and the like downtown, but in terms of the # of people living there it is much smaller then Toronto, particularly if you consider the outer core i.e. all the condos being built in the are roughly bounded by - Bloor/Sherborne -> Waterfront (now with Bayside / East Bayfront about to kick off) and then all the way west (at least to the south) to the Queen West trinagle. On top of this is all the inner suburbs you mentioned.

 

[taal]

btw some rationale behind my selfish point above:


I feel all the developments taking place in MCC/Markham Center/SCC/Yonge (north of Steeles) and eventually Vaughan will in the long term take away from the greater downtown area!

Anyone else feel the same way ? i.e. they may all turn our great, but its less intensive to go downtown so now we'll have more and more people stay in there desired areas which will creating stronger sub regions (but nothing that can compare to a traditional downtown) and a weaker downtown.

I should mention I believe waterfront Toronto is (after all is said and down) the largest planned comunity i.e. larger then Markham center so technically I should add that to the list but figure as it's already downtownish it won't have such an effect.

I really don't count NYCC and Y&E for many reasons, mainly, none of the developments to come will likely compel people to stay away from downtwon as it's already fairly built out.


Any thoughts about this ? To tie it with Chicago you can argue it's good they have weak suburbs (I assume this is the case as I have no idea my self but it was mentioned above ... but frankly, if you look at the plans of many of our suburbs they probably really outshine everything in north America now?)

 

[steveve]

I feel all the developments taking place in MCC/Markham Center/SCC/Yonge (north of Steeles) and eventually Vaughan will in the long term take away from the greater downtown area!

Yup. that sums it up pretty nicely. exactly my rant in a sentence.... The definition/idea of Downtown Core is become washed away in the sand... i'd rather have an amazing downtown core, than have it spread all over the place with a just average downtown,