Toronto/Chicago comparisons

[isaidso]

Toronto sports culture is also severly lacking.

I'll give you that. How many sporting events did you attend this year? I bitch about Toronto sports culture too, but my record isn't all that great.

Football: 2 so far (Bombers, Alouettes)
Baseball: 1 so far (Angels)
Hockey: 0
Basketball: 0
Soccer: 0

I'll likely only see 2-4 more football games, 2-4 more baseball games this season, and maybe just 1 college basketball game.

 

[steveve]

Interesting. I'm surprised that after the first few buildings, how parallel the lines remain!

me too... but keep in mind, that list includes Toronto's proposed and under-construction, which is a HUGE deal.... Right now, I'm sure those lines aren't nearly as parallel as they are on that grid,

And on another note, I never knew Chicago was more economically powerful city on a global scale as Toronto... It beats it almost every time on these lists:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_centre

 

[Red October]

I was in Chicago a couple weeks ago and found myself constantly comparing it to Toronto and I have to sadly say that we have a way to go to equal Chicago..

To be honest outside of the downtown I would rate Toronto higher than Chicago, but the downtown, waterfront, architecture, planning, transportation, etc, and even history of Chicago hits it out of the park compared to T.O..

If we actually treated our Waterfront and had a mayor that cares about the city again, we could get close, but too much damage has been done to many parts (like the central waterfront) to recover from it seems.

It seemed like Chicago had a huge head start on Toronto in terms of development and history, even though the two cities were started around the same time. Chicago just grew a lot faster it seemed, and that's a reason why they have so much beautiful, tall, dense old architecture and a great downtown compared to Toronto, as well as a much more interesting history.. (Show me Toronto's Al Capone and John Dillinger if you disagree)

 

[kkgg7]

I was in Chicago a couple weeks ago and found myself constantly comparing it to Toronto and I have to sadly say that we have a way to go to equal Chicago..

To be honest outside of the downtown I would rate Toronto higher than Chicago, but the downtown, waterfront, architecture, planning, transportation, etc, and even history of Chicago hits it out of the park compared to T.O..

If we actually treated our Waterfront and had a mayor that cares about the city again, we could get close, but too much damage has been done to many parts (like the central waterfront) to recover from it seems.

It seemed like Chicago had a huge head start on Toronto in terms of development and history, even though the two cities were started around the same time. Chicago just grew a lot faster it seemed, and that's a reason why they have so much beautiful, tall, dense old architecture and a great downtown compared to Toronto, as well as a much more interesting history.. (Show me Toronto's Al Capone and John Dillinger if you disagree)

I completely agree with you.
Downtown Chicago beat downtown Toronto by a mile. There is simply no comparison actually. My chicagoan friend visited me last year and her comment was "oh so Toronto is actually a medium sized city". Yes, from our downtown core (anything east of Church or west of Spadina is basically pure residential except on Queen and Bloor) we are on a much smaller scale. Chicago's eight real subway lines are what I envy most. Its waterfront is world class, while ours is still semi-industrial. The Magnificant Mile is actually almost a mile of great shopping and incredible buildings, while our so called Mink Mile is actually 0.37 mile and the buildings are really... not on the same league. Architecture wise, I don't even need to say. Two different worlds. Toronto does not even have one single building exceeding 300 meters (besides CN tower, which is neither residential nor office building).

By the way, in terms of real estate, Chicago is probably 40% cheaper than Toronto.

That being said, Toronto being a younger and much safter city is growing very fast and I can see its potential if the right policy is put in place. I hope in the next decade, the waterfront will become something not so disgracefull but somewhere we enjoy visiting; and all those giant parking lots in the core area will be better utilized. Toronto also needs to triple its subway line but I don't see that happening in the next 10 years.

So stop compare to Chicago as if they are equally yet, instead learn from it.

 

[kkgg7]

If we actually treated our Waterfront and had a mayor that cares about the city again, we could get close, but too much damage has been done to many parts (like the central waterfront) to recover from it seems.

It seemed like Chicago had a huge head start on Toronto in terms of development and history, even though the two cities were started around the same time. Chicago just grew a lot faster it seemed, and that's a reason why they have so much beautiful, tall, dense old architecture and a great downtown compared to Toronto, as well as a much more interesting history.. (Show me Toronto's Al Capone and John Dillinger if you disagree)

Do you think central waterfront can still be saved? It looks hopeless now with all these ugly old condos. I feel painful every time look at them. What a prime location and what hideous structures.
Yes, we need leader who care about the city. And we need to stop saying "we don't need pretty things since we are so "livable" now". This whole livable thing sometimes is just a self-comforting lie which people are used to making themselves feel less ashamed of how the city looks right now.

 

[Red October]

Do you think central waterfront can still be saved? It looks hopeless now with all these ugly old condos. I feel painful every time look at them. What a prime location and what hideous structures.
Yes, we need leader who care about the city. And we need to stop saying "we don't need pretty things since we are so "livable" now". This whole livable thing sometimes is just a self-comforting lie which people are used to making themselves feel less ashamed of how the city looks right now.

Unfortunately a lot of damage was already done. Chicago in the past was just as much of a dirty industrial city as Toronto (they reversed the flow of the river to combat how toxic it was!), but they took the opportunity to completely do it over and make it incredible. If you compare the northern beaches of Chicago/Navy Pier to Museum Campus, it's incredible how great the waterfront is, especially when stacked next to the Portlands to Sunnyside.

Yes, Toronto has the beaches in Sunnyside, the CNE/Ontario Place, and the Islands, but look at some of the things we put in between.. The Portlands are still a wasteland (and it seems as though they'll stay that way if Bob&Doug have their way), there are still surface parking lots along Queens Quay, Redpath continues to be an eyesore and a barrier on the waterfront, One Yonge and Harbour Castle are concrete eyesores right up along the waterfront, with the Harbour Castle complex acting as more of a barrier from the waterfront than the Gardiner ever will. I won't even mention the brown apartment buildings south of the Skydome, and we still have no idea what to do with the monstrous silos near the island airport. When I compare that to Navy Pier, Millennium Park, Buckingham fountain, all the way to the Museum Campus, it's just depressing. Chicago took their opportunity to make their waterfront public and beautiful, while Toronto privatized a lot of it and built these barriers that seem impossible to overcome.

Now I know Toronto is making progress.. The Islands are fantastic, as is the Leslie Spit. The Wavedecks are really cool, as is Harbourfront Centre and HTO park. Even the east end is making progress with Cherry beach and Sherbourne Common. However, it seems overall Toronto took a more Manhattan route when dealing with its waterfront, and that's an area where Chicago has what seems like an unreachable lead.

 

[Filip]

Chicago is currently ahead of us, but I don't think I'm being disingenuous by saying the future belongs to Toronto.

 

[steveve]

Personally, I am biased because I live in Toronto, so Toronto automatically wins for liveability.
But from my skyscraper geek POV, Chicago's downtown is much prettier.... much higher class looking city. (it has the age to back it up as well)... It's as close as you'll get to New York City.

Chicago's downtown just feels bigger (building wise). Street canyons are much grander. Buildings are just bigger... I don't think you can really compare to Toronto.... Even with all the additions like ICE, Aura, One Bloor, etc... the feel just isn't the same.

 

[Red October]

^ A big part that adds to the "big" feel is the fantastic streetwalls like Michigan Ave going past Millennium Park.. I am at work right now but when I get home I'll post some great pictures I took of just this.

 

[PUTOTO]

Chicago's downtown is much prettier.... much higher class looking city.

Actually, according to my knowledge and actual experience,
Montreal, Chicago, and New York, all of them are much prettier, much higher class looking city than Toronto.

Busy global tourists go to Tokyo for Japan, Shanghai or Beijing for China, Paris and London for UK and France to get a glimpse of the beauty of each of the jewels. They go to New York City and get the idea of what the United States is: Powerful history and historical remains(architecture) of immigrants and their descendants from Europe in the 19th and 20th, multiculturalism with more than 200 languages written and spoken, and finally the might of the current largest economy in the world.
For Canada, naturally, busy and ignorant tourists visit Toronto, and many of them think of Canada as a total disappointment.

However, staying a little longer than a week of tour, they will figure Canadians are not a bunch of morons did nothing but building shelters, eating and going to sleep in there.
It was just the unfortunate failure of their investment into Montreal.

It seems that the future belongs to Toronto. I personally think Montreal is a greater vessel than Toronto for the face of Canada because of the location and geography, but if this is the path, so be it. If humans manage to build a great megalopolis in far inland near one of the huge fresh water lakes, it will be impressive too.
I hope Toronto gets full support from the municipal and federal governments to catch up as fast as it can.
I personally want Toronto to be more like an alternate of New York City in Canada than a quiet but clean and pretty city like Chicago.
Of course, as you know, New York City is much prettier than any of the N.A. cities mentioned above. (except for garbage on streets)

 

[Filip]

Toronto has intangibles that most cities on this planet would only dream of. Time to capitalize on all of that (albeit it is happening, slowly), and claim our spot on the global stage.

A good start would be to take down overhead wires on main streets. Those 1880s looking transformers dangling on wooden poles is pathetic; Toronto is not some frontier town in Western Canada.

 

[adma]

Redpath continues to be an eyesore and a barrier on the waterfront,

In practice, Torontonians who deem Redpath to be nothing more than a dispensable eyesore (esp. in the aftermath of the Sugar Beach counterpoint) aren't exactly paragons of enlightenment and sophistication in the beholding and appreciation of our comprehensive extant urban fabric. And neither are out-of-towners who deem Redpath thusly--just because you're from New York, Paris, Chicago, wherever wouldn't make you any less of an insensitive, destructive yuppie scumbag; heck, I, as a Torontonian, can probably inherently appreciate your comprehensive, scaleable home turf than you can...

 

[Red October]

In practice, Torontonians who deem Redpath to be nothing more than a dispensable eyesore (esp. in the aftermath of the Sugar Beach counterpoint) aren't exactly paragons of enlightenment and sophistication in the beholding and appreciation of our comprehensive extant urban fabric. And neither are out-of-towners who deem Redpath thusly--just because you're from New York, Paris, Chicago, wherever wouldn't make you any less of an insensitive, destructive yuppie scumbag; heck, I, as a Torontonian, can probably inherently appreciate your comprehensive, scaleable home turf than you can...

I am a hometown and homegrown Torontonian, and I know the importance of Redpath being there, and can appreciate it.. But if you don't think it's an eyesore and a large block in the waterfront then you're deluding yourself.

If you've ever tried to walk the entire length of the waterfront, you know how much of a barrier it is, and looking at any aerial image of Toronto, or shot of its waterfront, you can see how out of place and how much of a block it really is. I appreciate their importance in Toronto and that location, but seriously if we want to have a respectable waterfront we need to get rid of the factories in the central waterfront area. It's a logical decision to make.

 

[Torontovibe]

I think a lot of you people have this idea in your heads that everything is better in America and you overlook what's good about Toronto.

Chicago will never have the lively street vibe we have and our downtown streets only get more crowded, with every new tower that goes up. The only cities in North America that are livelier than Toronto are New York and possibly Montreal.

When you compare Bloor Street to the Miracle Mile, you can't leave out Yorkville, which is also about upscale shopping. And let's face it, Yorkville is growing and expanding very quickly, as will Bloor, once 1 Bloor Street opens. It's not just what is, but also how the city is developing and NO city is growing faster than Toronto. The future is here.

I actually prefer Toronto's waterfront and think it's a lot more interesting to explore. It's way more diverse and contains real neighbourhoods where people live, stores, restaurants, schools and amenities, right on the water. It's more like a European waterfront, than the North American type.

 

[adma]

I am a hometown and homegrown Torontonian, and I know the importance of Redpath being there, and can appreciate it.. But if you don't think it's an eyesore and a large block in the waterfront then you're deluding yourself.

If you've ever tried to walk the entire length of the waterfront, you know how much of a barrier it is, and looking at any aerial image of Toronto, or shot of its waterfront, you can see how out of place and how much of a block it really is. I appreciate their importance in Toronto and that location, but seriously if we want to have a respectable waterfront we need to get rid of the factories in the central waterfront area. It's a logical decision to make.

My "you" was meant reflexively at the hypothetical visitor-to-Toronto, rather than to you, specifically.

Otherwise, it's probably a matter of "respectable to whom". For example, if we're talking about the "Porter class"; yeah, they may be sopheesticated Tyler Brule jetsetters and all, they might think it's "unrespectable" to have this thing still standing at the Island Airport

Which, in its *present* awkward hope-someone-carts-the-old-crock-away shoehorn situation, may be a Porter-induced truth.

But it doesn't make it any more insensitive a circumstance, So, I suppose it's a matter of what's tank-town worse: the fact that the old crock of an old terminal still exists there at all, or the fact that Billy Bishop authorities have treated it like dirt and want to dispose of it.

And generally speaking, those visiting New Yorkers and Chicagoans who might think the former are probably the sorts who'd be not-unrightly attacked as insensitive yuppie scumbags in their own hometowns--insensitive in the name of "respectability", I suppose...