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Toronto building boom

Yeah. Plus I sighed a little at the reference to Millenium Park at the end: a) can we ever talk about TO positivly without referring to another city and b) as if building one of those is so easy

No, we can't talk about TO without referring to another city. Referring to other large cities is the only way to know how really we are doing. Just like if you kid comes back and tell you she got 85 on math, you won't know whether you should be happy or sad without knowing how the rest of the class did. Is the median market 70 or 95? Talking positively about Toronto without any reference is meaningless except to satisfy some home vanity with eyes closed to the outside world.
 
You can't talk about the building boom in TO without mentioning Southcore (via The Grid):

http://www.thegridto.com/city/places/goodbye-bay-street-hello-south-core/

Great article! It only serves to reinforce the notion that the DRL should connect at Union and not further north.

Interesting that the term 'Southcore' seems to be have become established.

I liked the term the first I heard it! I realize it's some marketer's concoction, but it seems to work!
 
Yea well...the Baroque period didn't have a Jane Jacobs. ha

But then again, they didn't need one, as the big difference is that what's going on now is for the "every man". The average working stiff of the Baroque period wasn't enjoying much of the results of Wren or Hawksmoor (far as I know).

Well, Everyman could pray in the beautiful churches that they, along with Thomas Archer, designed ... and see plays in Vanbrugh's Haymarket theatre in London ... and gawk at other civic buildings such as Gibbs's Radcliffe Camera ... and go as tourists to stately homes like Stowe ... and gawk at Hawksmoor's university buildings and Wren's Sheldonian Theatre in Oxford ...
 
Well, Everyman could pray in the beautiful churches that they, along with Thomas Archer, designed ... and see plays in Vanbrugh's Haymarket theatre in London ... and gawk at other civic buildings such as Gibbs's Radcliffe Camera ... and go as tourists to stately homes like Stowe ... and gawk at Hawksmoor's university buildings and Wren's Sheldonian Theatre in Oxford ...

Good luck trying to get an education in any of those university buildings, Everyman.

Thus "Jude the Obscure."
 
Vancouver`s Yaletown is not vibrant due to the condos built there the last 20 years. In fact, in terms of nightlife, there were more nightclubs there 30 years ago than there is now.
 
Chicago is in huge debt because they spent a looooot of money....millennium park included...and they're paying the pric now!
 
Chicago is in huge debt because they spent a looooot of money....millennium park included...and they're paying the pric now!

Yea, while MP is a gorgeous bauble, it certainly wasn't a wise expense considering Chicago's budget issues and infrastructure that needs those funds. If Toronto blew $1/2 billion on something as small as MP, we'd linch them.

Personally, I prefer spending that kind of cash on Union Station, and still getting nice new parks like Sugar Beach, Sherbourne Common, Brickworks, etc, etc.
 
Yea, while MP is a gorgeous bauble, it certainly wasn't a wise expense considering Chicago's budget issues and infrastructure that needs those funds. If Toronto blew $1/2 billion on something as small as MP, we'd linch them.

... and yet in Toronto we still have 'budget issues' and infrastructure needs too (to say the very least), only without anything that remotely approaches the civic grandeur of MP. At least Chicago has a gorgeous bauble or two.
 
... and yet in Toronto we still have 'budget issues' and infrastructure needs too (to say the very least), only without anything that remotely approaches the civic grandeur of MP. At least Chicago has a gorgeous bauble or two.

Ok...your over-the-top ridiculous statements aren't just false...they are becoming annoying.

First of all, MP, as nice as it is, isn't all that. Personally, I think they got ripped off. I mean common... $1/2 billion for that????????? I wouldn't trade in, say, Harbourfront Centre for that.

Secondly, large swaths of Chicago looks like Detroit, and half of Chicagoans live in areas seriously short of park space. So to have $1/2 billion spent on an existing park is scandalous, when you consider how far that money could go building "normal" park space where it is badly needed. Chicago throws all it's money in the Loop, and forgets the rest of the city.

And no, both cities are not in the same fiscal boat at all.
 
I mean common... $1/2 billion for that????????? I wouldn't trade in, say, Harbourfront Centre for that.

I would trade in Harbourfront Centre, along with 500 meter along Queen's Quay to the east, for that.
How much is Harbourfront centre worth? like 3 million? looks like it took a month to set the whole thing up.
 
Ok...your over-the-top ridiculous statements aren't just false...they are becoming annoying.

First of all, MP, as nice as it is, isn't all that.

What are you, two?


Personally, I think they got ripped off. I mean common... $1/2 billion for that????????? I wouldn't trade in, say, Harbourfront Centre for that.

... but you don't think MP is 'all that' so you pretty much have no credibility. Move on chum!



Secondly, large swaths of Chicago looks like Detroit, and half of Chicagoans live in areas seriously short of park space. So to have $1/2 billion spent on an existing park is scandalous, when you consider how far that money could go building "normal" park space where it is badly needed. Chicago throws all it's money in the Loop, and forgets the rest of the city.

Ah yes, the 'bad parts cancel out the good parts' chestnut! I suppose Paris isn't 'all that' either right? I mean some of the outlaying areas there are pretty grungy too!

No, what is endlessly annoying is the smug idea that as long as the entire city cannot look like MP then none of it should.
 
What are you, two?

Pointing out the obvious (your excessive hyperbole) isn't a sign of immaturity. But you're right...if I were a better person, I would not dignify it by even responding to it.


... but you don't think MP is 'all that' so you pretty much have no credibility. Move on chum!

I'm not criticizing the design...I'm saying they waaaaaay overpaid for it. And couldn't afford to pay. It was/is a scandal for the city. The Anish Kapoor big shiny bean is certainly a cool piece of sculpture....but $23 million worth of cool? And if you're going to have something designed by Gehry...great. But as an outdoor stage, it could have been done by anyone....and at $60 million, it's obscene.



Ah yes, the 'bad parts cancel out the good parts' chestnut!

If you'd rather live in your rose-coloured glasses....grass-is-greener....cherry-picking world, go ahead. If you think it's wise municipal policy to attract attention to your shiny $23 million bean so people won't notice you're broke and huge areas of the city that is falling apart...fine. I don't.


I would trade in Harbourfront Centre, along with 500 meter along Queen's Quay to the east, for that.
How much is Harbourfront centre worth? like 3 million? looks like it took a month to set the whole thing up.

I think this conversation happened in another thread, so I won't re-hash it here. But as a cultural venue, Harbourfront is far superior, not surprisingly, as it gets about 4 times the attendance than MP. It also feels better to be in (partially due to it's waterfront location to be honest). Just goes to show you that you don't have to have over-priced starchitect pavilions to be attractive and successful.

It's also something that gives back to the city, rather than financially sinks it. It's very competently run, both creatively and financially. It doesn't cost the city anything, other than an annual $750k grant.

Places like MP and Harbourfront don't exist as pictures on computer screens...they are places to be and experience. Perhaps you should get off the computer and visit them?
 
No, what is endlessly annoying is the smug idea that as long as the entire city cannot look like MP then none of it should.

That is not it at all....you're creating a false argument. This is very "Fordite" thinking....what I want at any cost. It's the reason we pass on blowing the whole wad on a Sheppard subway extension, even though we'd like one, but those limited funds can be netter spent serving a larger amount of people.
 
I'm not criticizing the design...I'm saying they waaaaaay overpaid for it. And couldn't afford to pay. It was/is a scandal for the city.

... and these things run so smoothly in Toronto? How many years behind on NPS are we (already)? No cost to that at all, is there?! Heck, how long to pave Bloor Street? Queens Quay Boulevard?? I guess the difference is that maybe there was a 'scandal' in Chicago about it, that people actually cared about the cost. In the end though they've got freakin' MP!

Look, MP did not appear over night and without hurdles, of course, but in the end much of the cost was picked up privately. Yes, taxpayers were on the line for half of it but in return they've got just about one of the best civic spaces in North America for their use, and one that has raised property values, become an icon to the world, and become the second most popular tourist destination in the city.

The Anish Kapoor big shiny bean is certainly a cool piece of sculpture....but $23 million worth of cool? And if you're going to have something designed by Gehry...great. But as an outdoor stage, it could have been done by anyone....and at $60 million, it's obscene.

Heck, why have public art at all right?... or excellent architecture, or beautiful public spaces?? Especially if you have to actually pay for any of it!



If you'd rather live in your rose-coloured glasses....grass-is-greener....cherry-picking world, go ahead. If you think it's wise municipal policy to attract attention to your shiny $23 million bean so people won't notice you're broke and huge areas of the city that is falling apart...fine. I don't.

... hmmmm, 'broke' with 'huge areas of the city that are falling apart'. Are you talking about Toronto or Chicago? My vision may be rosy but it seems to me your glasses could use a little Windex!


I think this conversation happened in another thread, so I won't re-hash it here. But as a cultural venue, Harbourfront is far superior, not surprisingly, as it gets about 4 times the attendance than MP. It also feels better to be in (partially due to it's waterfront location to be honest). Just goes to show you that you don't have to have over-priced starchitect pavilions to be attractive and successful.

4 times the attendance? What are you talking about? How does a free public park track 'attendance'??

It's also something that gives back to the city, rather than financially sinks it. It's very competently run, both creatively and financially. It doesn't cost the city anything, other than an annual $750k grant.

... and where would it be without government grants? Oh that's right, government money is free!
 

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