Toronto Bathurst College Centre | ?m | 4s | RioCan | Turner Fleischer

Seriously, how can you argue against Walmart but not other large format retail outlets (e.g. most grocery stores [i.e. metro / loblaws], shopper drug mark / starbuck / ......) what's the difference exactly ?
 
The problem with this is not the retail but the design. Bathurst right now is lined with run down houses and is ripe for redevelopment. It's a major downtown street, so of course, it should be lined with retail but it needs to be designed in a very urban way, with mixed uses. I'd love to see 2 floors of retail with 6 levels of rental apartments or condos on top. I don't want to see typical shopping malls and suburban style big box stores coming downtown. I moved downtown to escape that suburban ugliness.
 
Torontovibe said:
The problem with this is not the retail but the design. Bathurst right now is lined with run down houses and is ripe for redevelopment. It's a major downtown street, so of course, it should be lined with retail but it needs to be designed in a very urban way, with mixed uses. I'd love to see 2 floors of retail with 6 levels of rental apartments or condos on top. I don't want to see typical shopping malls and suburban style big box stores coming downtown. I moved downtown to escape that suburban ugliness.
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I completely agree and frankly its fairly surprising !

Why ? Riocan has just got into the habit of teaming up with other developers (for both commercial and residential), why not here ! A perfect site.


My only guess ... they're afraid they wouldn't get much in the way of height, so wouldn't think it would work out.
 
Actually, height shouldn't be a problem for RIO-CAN. If you're familiar with the area, you would know that directly to the west is Markham Street with typical older semi-detached houses basically 2-3 storeys. To the southeast of the RIO-CAN site is Toronto Western Hospital,... a 15+ storey hospital. And you know how the city's planning department loves "transition".

For an idea of how the city loves "transition",... the 9 storey condo at the southeast corner of Markham Street & College is a great example,... again, the residential houses on Markham are older semi-detached 2-3 storey houses,.... and this 9 storey condo building has large retail (ShoppersDrugMart) on first floor and a terrace design that angles away from the small residential homes,.... but is more vertical on College,.. the city loves this type of "transition",... it allows them to increase density on a major artery (College) with streetcar route.

Hmmm,... this RIO-CAN site is also on a major artery with a streetcar route.

If RIO-CAN wanted more height, I don't think they would have a problem getting it. Officially the site is currently zoned for 14m height limit,.... RIO-CAN is now requesting 18m,... mainly due to roof top mechanical equipment. The 8 zoning variances on this applications are all quite minor,....


BTW,... personally, I don't think the main tenant is Walmart,... there's already a Walmart at DufferinMall. If they put another Walmart here, they'll be the two closest Walmarts in Canada.
 
Wait, a Walmart was specifically proposed here; I just referred to this Star article, which contains this excerpt: “RioCan CEO Ed Sonshine confirmed Tuesday Walmart will be the building’s chief tenant if the development is approved at the site of the Kromer Radio store at Bathurst and Nassau Sts.”

In response to those who don't understand what's worse about a Walmart than other giant retail: First of all, it's true, most such stores are terrible, but Walmart is the most prosperous such goliath, and thus has more of the destructive effect that this kind of retail has than others. Secondly, it's the iconic face of its kind, like McDonald's is to factory-farmed global fast food chains, and thus it serves as more of a symbol of this form of destructive urban planning/commerce/employment/out-of-control-capitalism than others to people who are concerned about this stuff. Thirdly, what are you trying to imply? That other chains are bad too and we can't prevent all bad retail from happening, and therefore we should embrace it all? Also, it's not a binary issue: Many (if not most) chains have Walmart-like qualities, but they're not all equally bad and worth countering; some are worse than others—such as Walmart, which is the king—and we should oppose those more assiduously than the rest.

Torontovibe, I agree; two storeys of retail and six of rentals would be great.
 
arvelomcquaig,... thanks for the link which confirms it's a Walmart.


At the south-west corner of Bathurst & Dundas, there already is a McDonald's ("factory-farmed global fast food chains" as you call it),.... the north-west corner has a Tim Horton's,.... a Starbucks is closer to this site. Looking at Bathurst & College, there's a ShoppersDrugMart,... a ScotiaBank at the north-east corner and a RoyalBank nearby too,.... Let's not forget all the chains hidden in the foodcourt of the Toronto Western Hospital to the southeast of this site,.... including BurgerKing, SecondCup, Druxy's, PanzerottoPizza, another ShoppersDrugMart, etc,...

Thus, there's already lots of chains-stores and chain-restaurants along Bathurst near this site,... so a Walmart should fit in just fine.

All these chain-stores/restaurants "symbol of this form of destructive urban planning/commerce/employment/out-of-control-capitalism" generally allow shoppers to know exactly what to expect prior to their purchase. A Walmart would allow local residents of limited means to stretch their limited dollars more,... which would allow them to purchase more in terms of both quantity and quality than otherwise.


BTW, You might want to check the zoning bylaws. This site is NOT currently zoned for residential usage,... so adding residential to it would require major zoning changes,... on top of the 8 minor zoning changes.
 
all of those aren't huge retail centres like wal marts are though. Shoppers is the exception, but people tend not to trust / can't get drugs and the other items they purchase there in more local stores.

Wal-mart is the equivialnt of a general store, you can buy anything and everything. Meanwhile, places like mcdonalds and scotiabank provide on single service, which often has very little local compitition for even upon opening. (With the exception of starbucks) These chains tend not to wipe outhe entire neighborhood retail strips, but they may shut down a couple of coffee shops and run down local fast food places.
 
One of the arguments against Walmart is that it'll bring in more traffic into the area,... but as a local retailer isn't that what you would want? Some of the Walmart shopper will end up in the local stores because they're in the area anyways! Raising tides lift all boats!

Since Walmart moved to Canada, we've seen Walmarts open up throughout the GTA,... when a Walmart opens up in the neighbourhood have they actually wiped out local retailers?

Look at the nearby Walmart at DufferinMall and GerrardSquare,... they actually serve as anchors to bring in more customers into those malls,... and the other smaller retailers in those malls benefit from that. I don't recall seeing any boarded up empty retail stores at those malls.

Please, give an example of where a Walmart opened in the GTA and caused a number of local retailers to go out of business,... where the mall ended up half deserted or retail strip was boarded up with out of business and for sale signs.
 
sunnyraytoronto said:
Please, give an example of where a Walmart opened in the GTA and caused a number of local retailers to go out of business,... where the mall ended up half deserted or retail strip was boarded up with out of business and for sale signs.
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Usually the opposite happens, as was the case with Honeydale Mall. Walmart moved out and the rest of the mall pretty much died.
 
I don't think so. It's a temporary interim by-law, and the city has already started a planning study (it's not just a stall tactic.) The OMB already ruled on an earlier application for this site that gave the city lots of room to maneuvre.
 
From Adam Vaughan
Dear Edward,

Today at City Hall, Councillor Mike Layton and I moved an Interim Control By-Law covering both sides of Bathurst Street.

This move, the most powerful planning control available to the city, is aimed at stopping certain types of development applications from Queen Street to Dupont Street while the Bathurst Street study is underway. Most critically, it will stop any new big box applications (even as-of-right applications) while the planning study does its work.

The move is not aimed specifically at any particular property, nor will it necessarily apply to any active application currently in hand at the city. The motion can be viewed online here:

2013.MM37.70 - Bathurst Street - Interim Control By-law - Final Report - by Councillor Mike Layton, seconded by Councillor Adam Vaughan​
http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2013.MM37.70

The Bathurst Street Study is critical to the future of the neighbourhoods that line both sides of the street as it moves south from Dupont Street. In particular, it will give us time to understand the major intersections where transit lines cross. The Interim Control By-law will give us the time needed to stop applications while new and updated rules are developed for the corridor.

In addition to this move at City Council, Councillor Layton and I have been working with City staff to bring forward a proposal to hold a community consultation explicitly focussed on the intersection of Bathurst and Bloor. Recent news coverage of the future of Honest Ed's makes this decision to focus City Planning's attention on these four corners critically important.

As in all planning exercises in Ward 20, local residents, neighbourhood organizations, and area businesses will be gathered to proactively engage the challenges. Details of the meeting will be announced shortly.

Sincerely,

Adam​
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