Toronto Backstage On The Esplanade | 116.73m | 36s | Cityzen | P + S / IBI

The above change would be minor considering the water and venting for the bathroom is already right next to the proposed new laundry room.

I do redesigns for these floor-plans all the time and some seem so obvious that it's amazing the crap the average consumer will just accept. Architects for Toronto condos can be so lazy because the units sell anyway. In other cities around the world, the interiors are much more well thought out and it has to be that way or people in those regions won't buy.

Toronto's condo boom has actually been a detriment to all aspects of design.

It's like the Maple Leafs. They don't have to win to fill the ACC all the time, so why bother trying? They make money anyway.
 
Traynor said:
The above change would be minor considering the water and venting for the bathroom is already right next to the proposed new laundry room.

I do redesigns for these floor-plans all the time and some seem so obvious that it's amazing the crap the average consumer will just accept. Architects for Toronto condos can be so lazy because the units sell anyway. In other cities around the world, the interiors are much more well thought out and it has to be that way or people in those regions won't buy.

Toronto's condo boom has actually been a detriment to all aspects of design.

It's like the Maple Leafs. They don't have to win to fill the ACC all the time, so why bother trying? They make money anyway.
Click to expand...

I agree with all parts of that comment, including the Leafs part, which is why my family and friends boycotted them last year. Though it's dated nowadays :)
 
Traynor said:
The above change would be minor considering the water and venting for the bathroom is already right next to the proposed new laundry room.

I do redesigns for these floor-plans all the time and some seem so obvious that it's amazing the crap the average consumer will just accept. Architects for Toronto condos can be so lazy because the units sell anyway. In other cities around the world, the interiors are much more well thought out and it has to be that way or people in those regions won't buy.

Toronto's condo boom has actually been a detriment to all aspects of design.

It's like the Maple Leafs. They don't have to win to fill the ACC all the time, so why bother trying? They make money anyway.
Click to expand...

Toronto actually has one of the most hyper competitive markets in the world right now. You may not like the designs, but change orders can be made where the wet walls stack up. Units don't "just sell anyways" - there are big differentials between projects with their absorbsion rates and even within projects with certain unit designs being absorbed quicker then others - many buildings and their suite mixes are often rejigged mid-project to deal with interior layouts with new releases or changes to building design (which you often complain about in other threads - if certain aspects aren't selling, then developers are forced to make changes)... things are going to slow down significantly next year, so the competition between products will intensify and some projects will ultimately fail if not properly positioned. There are huge risks taken by developers and they tend not to lay out those risks with "lazy architects".

The Maple Leafs are the worst possible comparison - they are the only game in town, the condo market on the other hand has a significant number of major players and then if you are looking for a niche product many many other players - which is vastly different from most other north american markets that are a fraction of the size of Toronto's market (NY & Chicago included)
 
Mike in TO said:
Toronto actually has one of the most hyper competitive markets in the world right now. You may not like the designs, but change orders can be made where the wet walls stack up. Units don't "just sell anyways" - there are big differentials between projects with their absorbsion rates and even within projects with certain unit designs being absorbed quicker then others - many buildings and their suite mixes are often rejigged mid-project to deal with interior layouts with new releases or changes to building design (which you often complain about in other threads - if certain aspects aren't selling, then developers are forced to make changes)... things are going to slow down significantly next year, so the competition between products will intensify and some projects will ultimately fail if not properly positioned. There are huge risks taken by developers and they tend not to lay out those risks with "lazy architects".

The Maple Leafs are the worst possible comparison - they are the only game in town, the condo market on the other hand has a significant number of major players and then if you are looking for a niche product many many other players - which is vastly different from most other north american markets that are a fraction of the size of Toronto's market (NY & Chicago included)
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The above sounds like you took my comments personally and have something at stake. You are defending "Lazy Architects" as if you are one, know one or love one. One thing I know about human nature... No one defends another group unless they themselves feel slighted in some way. No one is that alturistic. Even if it is only your sense of truth that has been affronted, you have snapped at me personally and not just defended a point of view.

Furthermore, that does not sound like it is written from an objective point of view. Though I am sure it is a well informed and educated opinion, it smacks of Real Estate Agent talk to me and is therefore subjective.

Where as I was only armchair-developing and posting my criticism of what I have observed from hours of scouring through floor plans from all over the globe. I have no personal vested interest and am completely objective and outside of the market.
 
As far as my Maple Leafs analogy goes, despite your protestations to the contrary, it is spot on.

You may see condos as individual entities alone in their own marketplace. If they don't design well, then the consumer will move to another condo That is to say: another market place.

When in fact the condo market in Toronto acts as a single entity. The same way all niches of a market end up doing. Just like gas stations all over a city, end up setting prices the same. (In that case it is the most per litre the consumer will tolerate.) It is not a monopoly in the legal sense but in effect, acts as one. So too for condo development. The developers devolve into designing the absolute least their consumers will tolerate. There is only ONE Toronto and if you are somewhere in the world and want to live there, you have to take what they give you. The more desirable Toronto becomes on the world stage, the less the developers have to offer. It is the law of entropy.
 
That last post is so ridiculous it hardly even merits a reply - there is significant competition and a wide variety of companies that each do business very differently, have different cultures within the companies, different strengths and specialties (weaknesses as well) and a wide variety of price points offered. To suggest that as the market evolves and Toronto becomes more desirable the less developers have to offer is a bizarre statement (I guess the Winnipeg condo market must be incredible since it isn't a worldly city and is less desirable that Toronto) - anyone that has been involved in the industry or real estate can clearly see that even in the last decade through the recent boom that the industry has evolved and along with that evolution is generally higher architectural and design standards, a shift to greener products with strong competition in that area, standard features today that were upgrades 5 years ago and not offered at all 10 years ago, higher levels of customization, improved after-sales service etc (with a wide range of companies performing very well & sometime poorly in each of those areas).

We also have a lot more international players coming into the GTA markets and more players from out West - this is far different that even just a decade ago where it was almost entirely a domestic marketplace. I don't think many successful businesses operate on a motto of we do the least our consumers will tolerate - not a good way to stay in business when there are three other guys up the street that would be happy to take those customers off the hands of a lazy architect or builders doing the least possible... it is a pretty cut throat business to be involved in and when mistakes are made financial partners and the banks are very tolerant.

There are of course marco economic factors at play, but consumer preferences as well as other financial and political issues impact all the individual companies within that larger market place - there are only so many buyers to go around and there are a lot of companies fighting for those sales be it by price point, design, location etc.

I’m not suggesting things can’t be better or can’t continue to move or evolve in a positive direction, but you make some pretty strong and very negative statements or things that just don’t make sense (i.e. on of the most capitalistic and competitive high risk industries where both domestic and international companies compete for a limited and declining pool of buyers is somehow operated like a monopoly)... this is way off topic and I don't think there is much point in further debate as your views are pretty far out there.

Go Leafs Go
 
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Traynor said:
The above change would be minor considering the water and venting for the bathroom is already right next to the proposed new laundry room.

I do redesigns for these floor-plans all the time and some seem so obvious that it's amazing the crap the average consumer will just accept. Architects for Toronto condos can be so lazy because the units sell anyway. In other cities around the world, the interiors are much more well thought out and it has to be that way or people in those regions won't buy.

Toronto's condo boom has actually been a detriment to all aspects of design.

It's like the Maple Leafs. They don't have to win to fill the ACC all the time, so why bother trying? They make money anyway.
Click to expand...

Hello Traynor, I read your post to Mike in TO with interest as I too scour the globe for good floor plans - Many of which can be improved with a little thought and simply moving a few things around. The floor plans for this project are a good example but I must agree, there are so many bad floor plans in the rush to get projects in the ground that it makes me ill. It casts a poor light on architects in general when they pump out such crap. Honestly, they put the closet in the middle of a tiny "living room". i don't think it's lazy architects but pressure from developers to make them as small as possible as fast a possible. We'll have to swap floor plans some day.

(I also agree with you on the Leafs) Man wouldn't it be cool if Toronto had a team too?
 
If the interior layout of a unit is crap, then nobody will buy it (or at least shouldn't). Isn't that just supply and demand? Why would anyone pay big bucks when they realize how bad a layout it is (if it's really that bad, how much of this is just personal preference anyway?).
 
urbandreamer said:
People buy crap. Look at Downtown Markham or CP. Hope this project gets canned--it's appalling and such a huge step backward for downtown.
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I remember a while ago going to visit some friends at their new home. It was nice enough but there was no washroom on the main floor, the front door opened right into the living room and the property backed onto a gas station. I found nothing appealing about this property but what would be the point in telling them? The point is - People buy crap. Not all people, but if you have looked at the floor plans for many of the condo projects over the past few years - and realised as bad as many of them are, -they sold. Sometimes location is more important or maybe some things don't bother some people but clearly developers know this too or we wouldn't see some of the atrocious plans we often see.
 
I don't think developers or architects intend on putting "crap" on the market, but when a very significant number of units are purchased by investors and many of them aren't even setting foot in the units with the intention of renting them out but are just putting their money in RE then the "liveability" of many units goes overlooked.

If the buyers aren't telling the developers that there are issues with the floor plans then whomever lives in them is stuck with them or may not know better otherwise. With that said, sure, it would be beneficial that developers and architects place greater forethought so it doesn't become an issue. But they have their challenges too and if a buyer doesn't motivate them to look deeper into something then there is no incentive from a natural standpoint.

Back to Backstage, notwithstanding the closet in the living room, most of the floor plans are pretty good, IMHO, given the challenges of the location and therefore design of the building. For the most part, I'm impressed.
 
alot of people buy crap b/c the can't read floorplans, can't visualize things in 3D, etc, otherwise they wouldn't be surprised how small the unit actually is once constructed.
 
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