Toronto article in Fall 2009 Intelligent Life Magazine

[kEiThZ]

Back to the article now...

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

If you *really* want to talk about weak national identity, don't blame multiculturalism - blame provincialism. The predominant tensions in the country are regional/provincial in scale above all else. Doubt it? Just read the news - just how many nation building schemes has been shot down because of interprovincial bickering? We are a country that can't even have a national power grid, national urban strategy, etc, etc...because that is seen as intruding into provincial jurisdiction - and that speaks plenty to the real historical barriers of developing a national identity instead of the multicultural scapegoat that is carted around.

AoD

 

[kEiThZ]

^ Very true.

Anyway, this whole debate started because of the assertion that our multi-culturalism was a big selling point. Back on that topic, I'd have to agree that it's hardly a huge selling point for Toronto, given that every major Western city is pretty multi-cultural these days. You aren't going to convince Londoners and Parisians to move to or even visit Toronto by selling our multi-culturalism. I am willing to bet that most Europeans would argue that New York has more of a distinct culture (embodiment of urban Americana) than Toronto. And they've got diversity to boot.

 

[Northern Magus]

Assimilationist policies are not in and of themselves an affront to human rights.

At the end of the day, multiculturalism vs. assimilation is a bit of a false debate.... None of those are changed by saying you support multiculturalism or assimilation.

I respect your addressing this dispassionately. But I can't agree with any of this.

At the end of the day, it's a very valid debate about the rights of newcomers and minorities and the power of the state. Multiculturalism and assimilation are diametrically opposed policy choices for integration and inclusion. They also greatly impact individual rights. Multiculturalism is the least forceful and the most respectful and tolerant. Assimilation abrogates rights and indirectly exerts a normative influence saying that difference is undesirable and does not belong.

It's easy to see why multiculturalism has thrived here.

Assimilation has a very specific and charged meaning in Canada. And if our history has shown anything, it's that we have ingrained in our society a very strong resistance to it.

 

[Tewder]

I wont bother responding to NM's silly accusations as Keithz and Whoaccio have done an excellent job already, and anybody with an open mind who can read for content will understand that a criticism of state-funded Multiculturalism is in no way a criticism of diversity, and that an embracing of a Canadian identity is not a call for a Nazi-like elimination of cultural expression... It is such a shame when a responsible and important debate on a national policy gets shut down by manipulative, closed-minded individuals who use false and gratuitous accusations as a cheap tactic for intimidating opposition to their viewpoint.

Policies of assimilation are not about stripping people of their rights. We are all protected by a charter and a constitution the last time I checked. Assimilation is about an educating of all newcommers and all Canadians for that matter on those rights and on the responsibilities of citizenship too. All countries do this. All societies do this.

I do see that for some there is an issue with the actual word 'assimilation'. Fair enough. It seems to be charged with an historic meaning that is clearly not implied in a criticism of Multiculturalism. A different word can be used if that makes somebody happy but as Whoaccio says Multiculturalism as a government policy is pointless at best, destructive to Canadian unity at worst. We are diverse. We do expect tolerance. Lets move on.

 

[Northern Magus]

I understand where Tewder's coming from.... I don't think its fair to label his views as racist.

I'm familiar with your propensity to make things up. Reality check: nowhere have I labelled his views as such. I do, however, believe that he articulated contempt for newcomers who do not "assimilate", and in support of this I quoted his posts verbatim.

His words speak for themselves.

I am fairly sure that this is also what Tewder means when he says others might find our values offensive.

Conjecture, unless you're his spokesperson. It's Tweder's obligation to explain himself, and he has a lot to explain. His positions are either ignorant and reckless or else outright disingenuous. Which is why he should avoid the shrill pontificating, especially given his poor grasp of Canadian history.

Back here, the reality is that multi-culturalism as an official policy has done very little to really promote a national identity. It's cause we really haven't done much to define and defend our own culture (save Quebec).

I note your selective omissions and patronizing tone, which are hardly new from you. Since you clearly missed the point made, I'm happy to repeat it: "defending" a culture is nationalistic, which is to say exclusionary and ultimately intolerant. Reality check: the government of Quebec shamefully abrogated the language rights of minorities in the name of cultural defence. That you would actually extol something like this speaks volumes about you.

Anyway, let's not take the debate to such extremes. I have not seen Tewder advocate anything as extreme as what you've pitched on here. So please don't paint him as some kind of bigot.

Uh-huh. I'm familiar with your practice of taking something to an extreme and then saying someone else shouldn't. Pity you never walk your talk.

Reality check: I have quoted Tweder verbatim. If he wants to say that "encouraging newcomers to celebrate the culture and identity of their homelands is simply wrong", then he is accountable for it.

Rationalize it all you want. It sure reeks of bigotry to me.

 

[Northern Magus]

encouraging newcomers to celebrate the culture and identity of their homelands is simply wrong

It's a shame when ignorant wannabe "devil's advocate" types with axes to grind about newcomers and multiculturalism start hijacking threads to spew their social gripes.

Policies of assimilation are not about stripping people of their rights.

Oh really? You might want to read a little history. Might do wonders for you.

a criticism of state-funded Multiculturalism is in no way a criticism of diversity

Uh-huh. Never mind the fact that assimilation means less diversity.

(Y'know, when someone's rationalizing this shrilly, it means they've been throttled badly -- and they know it.)

I do see that using the word 'assimilation' was pretty dumb of me and I had no idea that it was an actual policy with an appalling history. Having now read about what occurred I feel like a complete idiot and profoundly apologize to all for having ignorantly endorsed it. I hereby promise to stop and think before any of my ranting, pontificating, and getting all pissy in the future.

Yep, that's what you should have wrote. It's what any fair, open-minded, reasonable person would have done. Especially one who claims to value diversity.

The fact that you didn't speaks volumes.

 

[jenny_zhang]

I've read through Tewder's posts and I see nothing that is racist. Immigration isn't a right. Frankly I think it is obvious that our so called successful multiculturalism isn't really successful at all.

For example, so-called vibrantly multicultural Vancouver is basically going to become an Asian/Chinese city. I don't see much multiculturalism when I'm over there. It exists in pockets here as well. Brampton is a south Asian town, Markham a Chinese one. And the problem with this is the fragmentation of the population into various sub-divisions who all have very little to do with one another and don't care much for each other. As a Chinese raised in Markham I can tell you that my parents rarely if ever had contact with non-Chinese, most of their services, doctors, dentists, driving instructors, etc, were available in Chinese. Is this really multiculturalism? As far as I can tell it's just cultural replacement. A long time ago Vancouver had a certain culture/identity and now it's moving to another one.

It's tangential, but I'd also point out that multiculturalism has problems within immigrant communities.

That is a huge understatement. I can tell you first hand that many parents from Asia are very very ethnocentric and completely oppose the kind of ethnic harmony that I'm guessing people like Northern Magus say they want. So what is to be done with that? If you invite people from other cultures and tell them to keep their culture, well, some of those cultures are deeply steeped in a sense of xenophobia or ethnocentricism. What's to be done about that?

 

[GenerationW]

If you invite people from other cultures and tell them to keep their culture, well, some of those cultures are deeply steeped in a sense of xenophobia or ethnocentricism. What's to be done about that?

That depends. When immigration in large numbers from the home country tails off at some point and if that immigrant community is still isolated four or five generations further down the line, then we could have a real problem.

Most of my own group stopped coming to Canada in numbers by the 1960's, and there has been more loss of attachment to the mother country and more intermarriage with each succeeding generation.

 

[Sir Novelty Fashion]

...at any rate, this was a great piece. It captured the Toronto I know, at any rate. Small, loveable for reasons that are hard to pin down, and able to be looked square in the eye. He did a good job pinning that down.

Also: "Parts of it have a car-showroom feel, but it has world-class performances and acoustics as good as Glyndebourne’s." Car-showroom feel... nicely coined!

 

[pman]

this is unacceptable

It's a shame when ignorant wannabe "devil's advocate" types with axes to grind about newcomers and multiculturalism start hijacking threads to spew their social gripes.

Northern Magus, would you please stop the ad hominem attacks against Tewder? I understand you care passionately about multiculturalism, but that doesn't make it right for you to demonize people who question the policy. This thread has been an interesting and civil discussion up to your recent posts. It would be a shame to see it become some kind of left-wing version of the Glen Beck show.

 

[OttoSchloss]

Toronto is just an anxious city. I think it would benefit enormously from adding xanax to the water supply.

There are a lot of sacred Canadian cows that could go extinct. Official support for multiculturalism is one of them. No need for public money for that one. Equalization needs to go away. It's an experiment that really hasn't worked and only made provinces poorer or maintained a status quo of poverty and uncompetitiveness. Even our single payer health care system is failing and bloated.

Canada needs reform but Canadians aren't exactly reformers by nature.

 

[MisterF]

^Public health care and integrating immigrants from non-Western cultures as well as we do were huge reforms.

Re: criticisms of multiculturalism: it's kind of a moot point. I remember reading about a study a few years ago that found that despite our multiculturalist policy and the U.S. assimilation policy, immigrants to Canada (or, more precisely, thier children) tend to assimilate into the dominant culture more than immigrants to the United States. A policy of multiculturalism might have made Canadians less xenophobic, but it hasn't kept newcomers from assimilating. Most children of immigrants from China or India are culturally identical to people whose background is Scottish or Irish.

RE: public funding for multiculturalism - what is that exactly? For those of you who want that funding cut, what programs specifically don't you like? What problems would cuts solve?

 

[OttoSchloss]

^Public health care and integrating immigrants from non-Western cultures as well as we do were huge reforms.

Re: criticisms of multiculturalism: it's kind of a moot point. I remember reading about a study a few years ago that found that despite our multiculturalist policy and the U.S. assimilation policy, immigrants to Canada (or, more precisely, thier children) tend to assimilate into the dominant culture more than immigrants to the United States. A policy of multiculturalism might have made Canadians less xenophobic, but it hasn't kept newcomers from assimilating. Most children of immigrants from China or India are culturally identical to people whose background is Scottish or Irish.

RE: public funding for multiculturalism - what is that exactly? For those of you who want that funding cut, what programs specifically don't you like? What problems would cuts solve?

So we were once great reformers now sunk by a lack of imagination and a dependence on our past achievements.

I don't think most people who dislike the official policy of multiculturalism necessarily want new Canadians to wave the flag -even Canadians of several generations don't do that.

But there is a pervasive sense of separate but equal in the country (maybe because the French/English thing makes the country naturally schizophrenic) but I get a sense, and it might only be me, that multiculturalism is really a policy that is meant for white (European descent) Canadians and less for new immigrants and easing their assimilation into Canadian society as a whole.

 

[kool maudit]

oh dear, northern magus, you're calling him a racist and not addressing the issues raised. how very... canadian.

we can be such a tinny and self-righteous little people.

(oh no... i called us a "people." i meant "post-people human collective.")