Toronto article in Fall 2009 Intelligent Life Magazine

[Tewder]

oh dear, northern magus, you're calling him a racist and not addressing the issues raised. how very... canadian.

we can be such a tinny and self-righteous little people.

(oh no... i called us a "people." i meant "post-people human collective.")

LOL!!

I'm afraid to write anything here because our resident Multiculti-McCarthy has taken to quoting me and changing the words (creepy)... Besides, there is little point in responding to somebody who is clearly delusional and defamatory. It does remain clear to me however that Multiculturalism is increasingly irrelevant to a tolerant and diverse place like Canada when somebody has to resort to such desperate behaviour to defend it.

 

[jenny_zhang]

I'm not trying to be alarmist, I'm just reading the signs and saying that I don't like where this is going. At the worst, you'll end up with Canada divided on ethnic lines with ethnic areas and no real cohesion. Now that might be a worst-case scenario, but since it's nearly happened already in smaller scales (cities) I don't see how it's out of the question.

 

[MisterF]

Again, the whole idea of multiculturalism resulting in balkanization or separate but equal is a myth. Immigrants assimilate into Canada at least as much as they do into the United States. Our cities are much much more integrated. Canada, and more specifically Toronto, is probably the best example of immigrants integrating into society in the world. Racial and ethnic tensions are practically nonexistent compared to other countries. We're obviously doing something right. Nobody's explained yet how things would improve by abandoning multiculturalism.

 

[Hipster Duck]

Again, the whole idea of multiculturalism resulting in balkanization or separate but equal is a myth. Immigrants assimilate into Canada at least as much as they do into the United States. Our cities are much much more integrated.

How are you measuring "integration"? This is a very subjective metric that could involve number of inter-racial marriages, diversity of friend and social groups, etc. for which statistics aren't and cannot be kept. Basically, making a definitive statement about integration is an impossible task because it's all anecdotal.

 

[jenny_zhang]

Racial and ethnic tensions are practically nonexistent compared to other countries.

No, people aren't rioting against each other, but it is a complete myth to think that different ethnic and racial groups are all living in equal harmony and respect one another. Because they don't. Maybe people don't realize it, but we're importing sizable prejudice which undermines the very notions that the immigration policy is based on. It's a strange little cycle.

 

[MisterF]

How are you measuring "integration"? This is a very subjective metric that could involve number of inter-racial marriages, diversity of friend and social groups, etc. for which statistics aren't and cannot be kept. Basically, making a definitive statement about integration is an impossible task because it's all anecdotal.

No it's not. These issues have been extensively researched for decades. There are many ways of measuring integration. In this paper, Bloemraad argues that Canadian government policies have encouraged higher immigrant participation in mainstream society than in the United States.

"since 1970, Canada has been more successful in the political incorporation of newcomers than the United States."

"If we consider immigrants’ political incorporation into the Canadian polity, we instead find a strong pattern of integration: In 2002, 15% of the members sitting in Canada’s House of Commons were foreign-born, a proportion not far off the 19% of immigrants living in the country, and in 2001 the overwhelming majority of foreign-born residents, 72%, had acquired Canadian citizenship, almost twice the proportion in the United States."

Reitz and Breton at the University of Toronto have studied cultural maintenance of immigrant groups, language retention, and economic opportunity and found no significant differences between Canada and the United States (The Illusion of Difference, 1994).

And that's not even approaching how much more mixed Canadian cities are - we have nothing like the black-white-hispanic divide of Chicago or the immigrant housing complexes around Paris. Whether it's the result of official multiculturalism or not, it seems that the way we treat immigrants encourages fuller participation in society and might actually accelerate integration.

No, people aren't rioting against each other, but it is a complete myth to think that different ethnic and racial groups are all living in equal harmony and respect one another. Because they don't. Maybe people don't realize it, but we're importing sizable prejudice which undermines the very notions that the immigration policy is based on. It's a strange little cycle.

Do you have any proof of this supposed prejudice and widespread problems it causes? Does it hinder their childrens' opportunities to any significant degree?

 

[Northern Magus]

Immigration isn't a right.

I'm hardly surprised you would lionize Tweder's posts. But then you hardly come into this as a neutral, objective, or independent observer.

In other threads you've made your views on multiculturalism, immigration, and social darwinism quite clear:

No dual citizenship.

...The root of the problem is multiculturalism over assimilation...

I also think that Canada accepts too many refugees. While it's a noble idea, you have to be realistic and realizes that the quality of the country goes down if you bring in too many unskilled refugees who initially, at least, drain more than they give back. It's like having a ship. It's noble to rescue lost passengers, but if they don't have any skills to help, but you still have to feed them, then the quality of your ship is going down...

Btw, that's quite the little seafaring analogy about abandoning people to die.

 

[Northern Magus]

Multiculturalism as a government policy is pointless at best, destructive to Canadian unity at worst.

If you want to make demonstrably false assertions like this, don't expect silent assent. Expect the record to be corrected.

You're wrong on both counts: multiculturalism definitely has a point, which has enhanced, preserved and saved Canadian unity. And don't just take my word for it either:

Trudeau also saw official multiculturalism as a useful tool in his ongoing battle to diminish the threat of Quebec separatism, because in disentangling culture from language, he hoped there would be less emphasis on the notion of Canada being composed of ‘two nations/deux nations’, and more focus on Canadians as individuals whose first languages may be English and French, but had various different ethnic origins.

...According to Trudeau’s official multiculturalism, English and French would rein supreme as the two main languages in Canadian public life, while there would be no ‘official’ culture, but, rather, the recognition that Canada consists of many different culture, with none of them being considered superior to any other. (Source)​

Another example:

[Canada] is officially bilingual and multicultural – indeed, it exemplifies two varieties of official multiculturalism, the federal government’s ‘multiculturalism’ and the Quebec government’s ‘interculturalism.’ Twelve years ago Canada almost came apart along its major seam, but in fact its ‘national unity’ has been preserved, its looney is rising against the US dollar, and its overall prospects are now looking better than they have for many years. Not surprisingly, then, Canada is sometimes said (not just by Canadians) to exemplify ‘best practice’ in the management of ethno-national and ethno-racial rivalries, and visitors sometimes ask, ‘What is the secret of Canada’s success’. (Source)​

Yet again:

...Our elected leaders, as well as every one of us, must remain vigilant to attacks on multiculturalism and ensure immigrants and minority groups are treated fairly and that their integration into Canadian society is as smooth as possible.

Instead of questioning multiculturalism, we should reaffirm the inclusiveness and tolerance that has made modern Canada a success.

Our diversity is a source of strength, not weakness. Millions of new Canadians have settled successfully in Canada over the last 100 years. They and their children are proof that multiculturalism works. (Source)​

It is such a shame when a responsible and important debate on a national policy gets shut down by manipulative, closed-minded individuals who use false and gratuitous accusations as a cheap tactic for intimidating opposition to their viewpoint.

Really? You mean like falsely accusing someone of "chauvinistic nationalism"?

How rich.

 

[syn]

No, people aren't rioting against each other, but it is a complete myth to think that different ethnic and racial groups are all living in equal harmony and respect one another. Because they don't. Maybe people don't realize it, but we're importing sizable prejudice which undermines the very notions that the immigration policy is based on. It's a strange little cycle.

A lot of people do come with those attitudes, but much of it is filtered out with the 2nd generation.

I'd also like to counter the notion that it's just immigrants bringing in these attitudes. There are quite a few people born in Canada who don't care for various cultural groups and/or immigrants either.

You simply can't force people to think a certain way. If you look at the vast majority of immigrants, their children assimilate into Canadian society pretty well. There should be some basics though; I think new immigrants, at the very least, should have to learn an official language. Otherwise, there's not much you can do.

 

[jenny_zhang]

Do you have any proof of this supposed prejudice and widespread problems it causes? Does it hinder their childrens' opportunities to any significant degree?

I've experienced proof in my family home and cultural community for 20 years.

Btw, that's quite the little seafaring analogy about abandoning people to die.

It's a nice tactic to avoid actually responding to anything I say. It avoids having to come up with any substantial point to make in response. Fact is, nothing is wrong with what I said.

Since you object to my analogy, I guess you'd agree that Canada should, without any restriction, send planes out to every single country in the world and bring every single person who wants to immigrate into the country and settle them here. And this would cause no problems. I suppose that would be alright with you, since you disagree with my analogy and the fact you cannot "save" all the passengers you morally want to.

All you've been doing is posting emotional responses about how despicable everyone is for pointing out the obvious truth. If you can't admit a problem, you can't solve it.

 

[Tewder]

Again, the whole idea of multiculturalism resulting in balkanization or separate but equal is a myth. Immigrants assimilate into Canada at least as much as they do into the United States.

Be careful of the word 'assimilate' lest the Multiculti-McCarthy attacks you as a xenophobic racist...

I would respectfully disagree that Canada does better at acclimatizing newcomers and building collective unity across its diverse groups. We do pretty much absolutely nothing for this in fact. In the USA on the other hand there is a shared notion of 'America' that Americans and newcomers believe in and seek. Is it uniform? No. Is it flawed and problematic? Yes. Does it evolve and mutate over time? Yes. Is it inherently valued by all citizens regardless of its perceived flaws? Yes again. To be American is to identify with and belong to one's cultural group, at the same time as the collective national identity.

Remember the vision of Canadian Multiculturalism was of a non-integrated 'mosaic' rather than of an integrated 'melting pot'.

Our cities are much much more integrated. Canada, and more specifically Toronto, is probably the best example of immigrants integrating into society in the world. Racial and ethnic tensions are practically nonexistent compared to other countries. We're obviously doing something right. Nobody's explained yet how things would improve by abandoning multiculturalism.

Again, Multiculturalism is fairly new (despite NM's fanciful delusions of history). Who knows how it will turn out in the long run? It seems a bit premature, not to mention silly, to all be high-fiving ourselves as the greatest cultural experiment in the history of the world after barely a generation has gone by. Even in this relatively short timeframe there are emerging concerns, with as Jenny rightfully points out a growing realization among many Canadians of all backgrounds that there is in fact little real difference between ethnic 'mosaic' and balkanization.

A lot of people do come with those attitudes, but much of it is filtered out with the 2nd generation.

... but this is very much contingent on a certain level of integration and assimilation. As ethnic communities grow there is a legitimate concern that members of a particular community will have even less motive to integrate with other communities, not more.

I'd also like to counter the notion that it's just immigrants bringing in these attitudes. There are quite a few people born in Canada who don't care for various cultural groups and/or immigrants either.

I agree, there is absolutely nothing different in WASP multi-generational Canadians migrating to certain communities to live 'among their own kind' than immigrants and Canadians of Indian background migrating together to Brampton, as an example.

Syn, this is absolutely not an attack on immigration, no matter what Multiculti-McCarthy will disingenuously coerce us all to believe. It is an attack on government policy, plain and simple.

[/QUOTE]

 

[syn]

... but this very much contingent on a certain level of integration and assimilation. As ethnic communities grow there is a legitimate concern that members of a particular community will have even less motive to integrate with other communities, not more.

2nd Generation Canadians have little choice but to integrate. When you go to school with people of various cultures and have to interact with them everyday, your experience is going to be vastly different than those of your parents who may have grown up with certain prejudices that they refuse to let go.

Now, obviously there will be some people in successive generations who hold on to certain attitudes, but it almost invariably diminishes over time.

I agree, there is absolutely nothing different in WASP multi-generational Canadians migrating to certain communities to live 'among their own kind' than immigrants and Canadians of Indian background migrating together to Brampton, as an example.

Syn, this is absolutely not an attack on immigration, no matter what Multiculti-McCarthy will disingenuously coerce us all to believe. It is an attack on government policy, plain and simple.

I don't know what government policy can be changed to ensure people integrate. The only thing I think should be necessary is learning one of the official languages. Otherwise you can't legislate what people can think.

 

[jenny_zhang]

When you go to school with people of various cultures and have to interact with them everyday, your experience is going to be vastly different than those of your parents who may have grown up with certain prejudices that they refuse to let go.

But then, this goes back to my point about ethnic clustering. The first high school I went to located in the heart of Markham was majority-minority and hardly any white students and just a few from other cultures.

The university of Waterloo, similarly, for example, is more or less segregated and is seen as the "Asian university".

Those are some worst case scenarios, yes, but the enclave-trend does act against this natural force of integration you're bringing up.

I'd also like to counter the notion that it's just immigrants bringing in these attitudes. There are quite a few people born in Canada who don't care for various cultural groups and/or immigrants either.

Oh, I certainly don't think it's just immigrants who hold prejudice, far from it! I've complained here in the past about racism from native canadians. However overall I would say that I've found greater racism and prejudice within my immigrant community towards others than I've experienced at the hands of the "white majority". At the very least, it seems like there's an accepted notion in the mainstream that racism of this sort is wrong, but that idea isn't always held in immigrant countries who haven't had the history of confronting racial issues like north America has.

 

[syn]

But then, this goes back to my point about ethnic clustering. The first high school I went to located in the heart of Markham was majority-minority and hardly any white students and just a few from other cultures.

The university of Waterloo, similarly, for example, is more or less segregated and is seen as the "Asian university".

Those are some worst case scenarios, yes, but the enclave-trend does act against this natural force of integration you're bringing up.

Everyone does this though, including whites born in Canada.

I think one of the issues people don't want to address is that Canada isn't necessarily as accepting as we all like to think it is. There is a reason immigrants cluster together - it's hard adapting to a life in a new country. It helps to have people who you can relate to around. When you have native born Canadians who do that same thing, it's hard to expect the same from newcomers.

Oh, I certainly don't think it's just immigrants who hold prejudice, far from it! I've complained here in the past about racism from native canadians. However overall I would say that I've found greater racism and prejudice within my immigrant community towards others than I've experienced at the hands of the "white majority". At the very least, it seems like there's an accepted notion in the mainstream that racism of this sort is wrong, but that idea isn't always held in immigrant countries who haven't had the history of confronting racial issues like north America has.

Yes, a lot of immigrants can harbour pretty racist ideas. The main difference is that they're a lot more vocal about it compared to those that were born here.

 

[kEiThZ]

You can disregard the views of Jenny and myself all you like. But they are real first hand accounts of first generation immigrants. Myself as an Indian immigrant and Jenny as an East Asian immigrant.

I see where she is coming from.

I for one cherish very deeply the diversity of this country, having been a beneficiary of it. Believe me that there is nobody more proud and defensive of the Canadian policy of taking in people from all over the world. And there is no other place in the world, I believe, where immigrants can rise to the heights they do here either. It's a fact I brag about whenever I am outside Canada. And one that I take great pleasure in demonstrating to our so-called cultured NATO allies every time, we Canadians are on course with them.

All that said, I, like Jenny, worry about what we see in our communities first hand. From my perspective, South Asian immigrants who arrived in TO in the 80s and early 90s were compelled to integrate, learn the language, accept some of the cultural norms simply because it was necessary for survival. Today, one could move from Punjab to Brampton with scarcely any change of lifestyle or norms. It's great that immigrants are so welcome here.

But is that was intentioned when the official policy of multi-culturalism was implemented? That we'd get little Punjab in Brampton and little Hong Kong in Markham? Heck, Punjabis in Brampton don't even bother mixing with other South Asians in Toronto forget other non-indic cultures.

In my view, this is not a multi-cultural and diverse society anymore if people aren't mixing about. It's great that we can buy food from every part of the world. But is that we want Canadian multi-culturalism to be? A giant food festival? I recognize the stats that say children of immigrants integrate in a generation or two. But those stats come from era where there was no critical mass of immigrants in individual immigrant communities. Time will tell how this plays out, but I am willing to bet that we might start seeing a sliver of what's happened in the UK (where increasingly second generation muslim kids have more intolerant and extremist attitudes than their parents).

But I, like Jenny, remain worried. One of the things I fear the most, is that allowing these communities to remain so insular, will inevitably result in them bringing over their cultural baggage. The abuse of women, for example, in South Asian communities is a big one that's only now showing up in stats. The preference to educate girls over boys, will probably also start coming thru. I have now even heard of south asian couples pursuing sex selection for babies (a practice that's banned in India but legal here). It's stuff like this that I worry about. When you set no limits other than the bare bones Ten Commandants stuff, there's a lot of practices that Canadians would find distasteful that slip under the radar.

I don't know what the antidote is. To me, encouraging these communities to interact with other Canadians more is probably a net positive. Encouraging these communities to absorb some of our progressive values is also bound to be somewhat beneficial. If assimilation or integration seems a strong word for these processes then call it something else. But suggesting that the policy as is, will be perfect and won't lead to any problems is a head in the sand approach.

Those of us who live in these communities know first hand the problems that are there. Labeling those of us who speak out as racist, anti-immigration (odd since we are immigrants) bigots, etc. will not help improve the lot of immigrants or Canadians at large.