Actually, I think there's a good chance that the buildings on Yonge will be replaced.
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Toronto 2180 Yonge | 247m | 65s | Oxford Properties | Hariri Pontarini
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Waterloo_Guy
Active Member
It would be expensive. The development of this site would have to be fairly big to justify the cost. Do you think the City is planning on approving something that ambitious?
Planning does not like that the west side of Yonge is essentially one long unrelieved wall here from Eglinton to Berwick. Planning sees it as a hindrance in getting a lively street, or in properly redeveloping the parking garage area, the former bus terminal, etc. They want more porosity on the block, including a street pattern.
That's not to say that everything there now would come down in one fell swoop, nor that there's any kind of a finalized plan in place—just the intention to get a better couple of blocks out of this area.
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That's not to say that everything there now would come down in one fell swoop, nor that there's any kind of a finalized plan in place—just the intention to get a better couple of blocks out of this area.
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Waterloo_Guy
Active Member
But Planning doesn't make these decisions. You need developers to come on board and it needs to be profitable for them. And it has to pass Council.
The developers I've spoken to hate this complex and would love to see it go. Especially the fact that the lobbies for all three buildings are on the second floor. Loading docks aren't that great either.
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
Yah, that must be pretty frustrating. Some entrances on Yonge Street (near the subway entrance) require you to enter an odd room with a side-door into another room that contains an elevator and staircase, just to reach that second floor.
That being said, I think it is pretty cool how the three buildings are connected. It is like it's own PATH network, but on the second floor.
Why would Council say no to something that Planning, Oxford, Canadian Tire, and the TTC all want?
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Waterloo_Guy
Active Member
I didn't say they would.
But I would genuinely like your input on my original question: do you think the City (Council and Planning) would support a large enough project to justify such an expense? Are they thinking that big? This is an important site, and I hope they take advantage of the opportunity.
You only have to go back to post #94 to see that it's in the works. Oxford will likely push for something larger than Planning/the City initially wants, but, if there's significant office space proposed here, the City would have a hard time saying no. You'd have to do more digging into the Midtown in Focus Plan and the Yonge-Eglinton Secondary Plan to get a better idea of what the City wants, but how often has a developer wanted to stop where the City does? It'll all come down to negotiations, and something will come out of it.
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adma
Superstar
In a way, Toronto's closest thing to a successful Calgary-style +15 system. And still surprisingly "active", considering.
But remember that all these weird and awkward and ungainly configurations are a result of this being air-rights development astride Eglinton station--the original 2200 Yonge tower literally bridges the station (thus its strange counter-skewed angle relative to Yonge), while 2180's wedged tightly alongside the tunnel leading into the station. And while it all makes the complex "interesting", one can see why it can be seen as a marketing/leasing/urbanistic problem today...
Tuscani01
Senior Member
Not necessarily true. 2180 Has a ground floor lobby with a staffed security desk. The second floor houses shipping, staff lounges, and reception for Canadian Tire. TVO has their own reception desk on their floor too. No different than any other office building where each tenant has their own reception desk on their floors, and a central security desk for the entire building on the ground floor.
That being said, it's no surprise that Canadian Tire has outgrown the Yonge/Eglinton location, in addition to wanting to consolidate staff from many other locations in the GTA. With a developer like Oxford that wants to maximize the value of the land, and a stable and secure tenant like Canadian Tire - which is flush with cash right now and also happens to be part owner - It's not as farfetched as @Waterloo_Guy seems to think.
The money is there, the developers are there, the tenant is there, and the city is on board. CT REIT is looking to monetize it's assets, and simply leasing space to itself isn't the best return. It just makes sense that they would want more leasable office space at this location.
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WillTo
Senior Member
Actually 2nd floor is a regular TVO floor. 3rd floor is a "mall" floor with the lounge, mailroom, and Canadian Tire Reception.
Because Yonge is on a hill, the "mall" floor is the 2nd floor for the other office buildings in the complex.
taal
Senior Member
I guess my only thought it - is there demand ? We've seen a lot of talk of new office development around the Y&E node but none of it has come to fruition ; The best example being the RIOCAN floor additions. A lot of office space has left.
Quite a few tenants of left for downtown; Mind you, a lot of that has been backfilled.
But I'm not really sure there's a lot of demand for AAA office space in this node, I think a lot of companies would locate downtown instead, unless the rates are significantly cheaper, and I'm not sure that'd be the case with a large office development that involves demolishing the existing buildings. Yes there are a few big ones, riocan/CT (but both own the buildings/land).
Quite a few tenants of left for downtown; Mind you, a lot of that has been backfilled.
But I'm not really sure there's a lot of demand for AAA office space in this node, I think a lot of companies would locate downtown instead, unless the rates are significantly cheaper, and I'm not sure that'd be the case with a large office development that involves demolishing the existing buildings. Yes there are a few big ones, riocan/CT (but both own the buildings/land).
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
Well, in theory this location should become a lot more attractive once the Crosstown is built and the area is made nicer with Eglinton Connects improvements. The development of the bus bays should include a good public plaza (fingers crossed) and related pedestrian amenities.
I don't see why Y+E should be (by 2025) any less attractive than say Yonge + St. Clair, which seems to be doing well in the office department.
Maybe other posters are right in a mall being a necessary addition to an office complex here, to be serve as an attraction for office space.
I don't see why Y+E should be (by 2025) any less attractive than say Yonge + St. Clair, which seems to be doing well in the office department.
Maybe other posters are right in a mall being a necessary addition to an office complex here, to be serve as an attraction for office space.
taal
Senior Member
Oh I agree it's attractive, but not attractive enough to justify new AAA offices towers with comparable leases to downtown; Yonge and St. Clair is in the same situation really.
They're office nodes that have always had really low vacancy rates but not really a demand for new development (from a developers point of view) as the land/cost to build probably require rental rates they can't achieve, as they need to compete with downtown.
They're office nodes that have always had really low vacancy rates but not really a demand for new development (from a developers point of view) as the land/cost to build probably require rental rates they can't achieve, as they need to compete with downtown.