Toronto 2180 Yonge | 247m | 65s | Oxford Properties | Hariri Pontarini

I guess my only thought it - is there demand ? We've seen a lot of talk of new office development around the Y&E node but none of it has come to fruition ; The best example being the RIOCAN floor additions. A lot of office space has left.

Quite a few tenants of left for downtown; Mind you, a lot of that has been backfilled.


But I'm not really sure there's a lot of demand for AAA office space in this node, I think a lot of companies would locate downtown instead, unless the rates are significantly cheaper, and I'm not sure that'd be the case with a large office development that involves demolishing the existing buildings. Yes there are a few big ones, riocan/CT (but both own the buildings/land).

Oh I agree it's attractive, but not attractive enough to justify new AAA offices towers with comparable leases to downtown; Yonge and St. Clair is in the same situation really.

They're office nodes that have always had really low vacancy rates but not really a demand for new development (from a developers point of view) as the land/cost to build probably require rental rates they can't achieve, as they need to compete with downtown.

Well that's where I disagree. For one, there is demand for new development: look at 16 York, which is breaking ground without an anchor tenant. That's how confident the investors are.

Second, while there is no comparison to Union Station and its easy access to labour commuting from east and west 905 on the Gardiner and the GO, there is comparison in another respect: commuters from north 416 and 905. Why work somewhere in the Union Station district if you could get off the subway or the roads at Eglinton? I think it will be an attractive idea for commuters, especially when the Crosstown is finished, and I think that translates into redevelopment interest at this site.
 
I think it will be an attractive idea for commuters, especially when the Crosstown is finished, and I think that translates into redevelopment interest at this site.

Attractive to commuters is quite different from attractive to companies looking for space or developers looking to build. All of Yonge from Queen north to city limits is basically a dead zone for new office space (beside a few small exceptions). Developers can't charge the rents needed to build new office space in these areas. Yonge and Bloor has two subway lines and yet little in terms of new office space is coming online. Same for Sheppard and Yonge. I don't expect the opening of the Crosstown to all of sudden change the situation for Yonge and Eglinton.
 
Well that's where I disagree. For one, there is demand for new development: look at 16 York, which is breaking ground without an anchor tenant. That's how confident the investors are.

Second, while there is no comparison to Union Station and its easy access to labour commuting from east and west 905 on the Gardiner and the GO, there is comparison in another respect: commuters from north 416 and 905. Why work somewhere in the Union Station district if you could get off the subway or the roads at Eglinton? I think it will be an attractive idea for commuters, especially when the Crosstown is finished, and I think that translates into redevelopment interest at this site.

I'm not questioning demand downtown :) I'm questioning demand (at *high* rental rates, which are needed to justify new A+ office builds) anywhere on Yonge north of Bloor up to Steeles (hence why you really haven't seen any new office building construction in that stretch (less a few *forced* condo office buildings).

I really think at the end of the downtown is still much much easier to access even after the crosstown project that I doubt it'll really increase demand in the area a lot.


I bet you'll find ridership won't be astronomically higher than what's already on the bus routes that service Eglinton.



I mean remember the cost / benefit equation for a company / landlord:
1) I can lease office space downtown at a high rental rate but get all the advantages of being down (transit, attractive to yonger generation, ...)
2) I can pay substantially less and lease in the suburbs at traditional office parks
3) In-between I can lease space in new pseudo downtown / attractive areas (let's group, Y&E, NYCC, now Vaughan, lesser extent Markham Downtown, MCC) here as well.


So I think there is a huge demand for 1 ... a big demand for 2, and a much smaller but growing demand for 3).

1) Is evident even intra-Toronto, lots of companies have moved from NYCC and Y&E to downtown over the last few years.

The problem with 3) is cost, Y&E/NYCC are a lot more than Vaughn Center and Markham rental rate wise - and what's the added advantage ? The "its in a good, attractive location factor", well if that's the main criteria they're probably lumped into group 1) and are moving downtown (I saw downtown broadly, can be the core, or fridge markets on the west/east in brick and beam offices).

Now when costs are more competitive between say NYCC/Y&E <-> Markham/Vaughan ... they're relatively equal, and again its clear there is demand at those rates as the Y&E/C/NYCC have low vacancy rates, but now if you come in with a new AAA dev and need to charge more, I wager most folks would just want to locate downtown.

Anyway just a theory; Time will tell ... the theory to clarify is, existing office stock will continue to do decently well but you won't see a lot of new construction (or any, less forced construction i.e. replacing an office building and forced by the city ...) in Y&E. Also if this dev goes ahead at the CT site ... and you see the new dev has an equal amount of office space (but just a lot of added condos / residential) which is what I predict will happen, vs say more office space (more than the ~ hmm what is it, 400-600K in the existing 3 office buildings).


btw as some proof to this point, in the last 3/4 years NYCC vacancy rates have been increasing, a lot of that due to tenants relocating (not to the 905 but rather downtown), I think you'll see this continue.
 
But I'm not really sure there's a lot of demand for AAA office space in this node, I think a lot of companies would locate downtown instead, .

To be fair, I don't think most coming in from the 905 differentiate Y&E from downtown. I can't even count the number of times a day someone at work mentions that they have a meeting 'downtown', when referencing Y&E.

There are still a lot of people in the workforce who don't want to be downtown. This location is perfect for these commuters. Parking in the surrounding area is relatively cheap, there are transit options for those who live downtown, and the area isn't as congested as downtown. For companies that want to relocate from the 905, Y&E could be a perfect compromise for employees that don't want to make the trek.
 
I didn't call it farfetched. Read carefully, please.

Farfetched:
adjective
1.
improbable; not naturally pertinent; being only remotely connected; forced; strained

It would be expensive. The development of this site would have to be fairly big to justify the cost. Do you think the City is planning on approving something that ambitious?

I dunno... sounds like another farfetched comment. :p If it bugs you that much, I can change it to improbable or whatever other word you find acceptable.
 
Why work somewhere in the Union Station district if you could get off the subway or the roads at Eglinton?

Because there's much more limited access to Yonge & Eglinton. No Go Transit service, poor road access and expensive parking. The reason why North York Centre works well for offices is that there's direct transit service to virtually every part of the GTA. Go Transit buses can get you directly to there from Oakville, Square One, Meadowvale, Milton, Bramalea, Pickering, Ajax, Whitby, Oshawa, Aurora, Newmarket, East Gwillimbury. The reason why NYCC doesn't work that well is that the access makes it more expensive - if you're going to pay the price of a downtown office, why wouldn't you put your office downtown?
 
Farfetched:
adjective
1.
improbable; not naturally pertinent; being only remotely connected; forced; strained



I dunno... sounds like another farfetched comment. :p If it bugs you that much, I can change it to improbable or whatever other word you find acceptable.

I called it expensive and ambitious, neither of which are synonyms for improbable. If you read through the last few comments again--slowly this time--you will see your error.
 
I called it expensive and ambitious, neither of which are synonyms for improbable. If you read through the last few comments again--slowly this time--you will see your error.

You were suggesting it was improbable - by using expense, ambition as reasons. The whole premise of your post was to say that redevelopment would be unlikely due to the reasons you listed.

Are you now saying that neither of those factors matter? If so, why bring them up at all?

I made no error. Your point was that redevelopment was not likely to occur - plain and simple. Improbable and far fetched work in that context - considering that the whole point of your post was to suggest that redevelopment is not likely to happen.

Regardless, none of this is adding to the discussion here. If you want to continue, PM.
 
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Maybe this is a good opportunity for CT to move downtown into a large new shiny build ? :)
 
Looks like they might have some plans underway to share...

Strikes me as an open forum. They probably do have plans but aren't about to share, but still want to have something open and pretend that 'no, we want to work with the community and build this from the ground up!'

Or maybe they are being sincere. I don't know, I'm cynical about that stuff though.
 
Strikes me as an open forum. They probably do have plans but aren't about to share, but still want to have something open and pretend that 'no, we want to work with the community and build this from the ground up!'

Or maybe they are being sincere. I don't know, I'm cynical about that stuff though.

The planning firm also has the Mirvish Village project listed in their portfolio, which seems to have been one of the best examples of engaging the community and refining a plan based on community feedback. I'd assume they are bringing the same strategy to this site with Oxford/CTREIT
 
Maybe this is a good opportunity for CT to move downtown into a large new shiny build ? :)

Not likely, CTC is very bullish on the Yonge Eglinton location (I used to work there) and with the addition of the Crosstown, I'm sure they aren't going anywhere.

I see this as an incredible development opportunity any developer would drool for.
- Intersection of two major transit lines
- Major tenant already in place - likely to sign a long term lease (who may also mitigate some "risk" by taking part of the ownership)
- Large local residential area for workers and there will also likely be a large condo component of the project as well
- Great opportunity for considerable retail

The city will be very welcoming for a major project here - especially if it includes office space. Yonge and Eglinton is a thriving/bustling area and with the coming transit and condos this is going to be one of the most dynamic intersections in the city. The area west of Yonge has struggled for a long time because of the misused areas just west of the YEC - It always seemed the area was alive east of Yonge but was stopped from going west by the "dead end" caused by the bus bays. I'm sure this project will be a high priority for Oxford (and the TTC, and CTC and the City).

I'd like to see something along the lines of "The Well" here.
 

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