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The "School District" question

Admiral Beez said:
It's interesting how we use the premise of school district to value homes and neighbourhoods, when in many cases IMO what we really want is to live amoungst successful, professional, educated and I dare say English-1st language caucasian folks with both the will and means to be house proud and take care of their property. This certainly describes nearly every real estate area I can think of in the city of Toronto where the "school district" is used to gauge high property values.

However, can you imagine telling a realtor that your top criteria is upper middle class folks. Instead we ask for a top school district.
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Well, my neighbourhood is middle class, with a mix of upper middle class and lower middle class, and some lower class, but some higher-than-usual-upper-middle-class as well. These are rough classifications, but I'm basing this on < $40000 family income being lower class, $40000-60000 being lower middle class, $60000-85000 being middle income, $85000-125000 being upper middle class, and >$125000 being high income. (In nice areas of Toronto, I don't actually think of $125000 family income really being high income, but that's what some people have published, so I'm using that for this post.)

http://www.cpso.on.ca/CPSO-Members/Peer-Assessment/The-Assessment

However, it is a very good school district, both for the public elementary school and the high school. The bigger mix of classes is for the high school, as the public elementary school is more middle class to upper middle class, with some high income. The elementary school is top 15%, with an average parental income of $117000, so its good FI score doesn't come as a huge surprise. However, the high school is top 10-11%, with an average parental income of only about half the elementary school's. ie. Average less than $60000, because the catchment area is much larger..

OTOH, across the street (same street in fact), the high school is at the BOTTOM 15%, and the income is similar, only about a 5% difference. Just as importantly, it's also known as a rough school.

So I'd say investigation of the school district is extremely important here. As mentioned earlier, if I lived across the street, I'd consider sending my kids to private school. Thus, that would factor into home pricing for many people.

James said:
As un-PC as your statement may come across, I have to say that it has merit. I've discussed this "school district" to "real estate" issue ad nauseam with many people and what we've concluded, and what we've all also noted here in this thread, is that it isn't really the school, per se, that is "better" but the kids in those neighborhoods who happen to go to those schools.

The interesting thing about the Fraser Institute scores, however, is that it applies adjustment factors based on expected academic scores in relation to household income. This lowers the school's score in higher income neighborhoods and raises them in lower income neighborhoods. What I've found to be most interesting is that parents in the wealthier neighborhoods don't care as much about where "their" school ranks in comparison to parents in the lower income neighborhoods who are more inclined to talk about how high their neighborhood school ranked in the study. All of this is anecdotal, of course.

I guess what I would surmise is that parents will always look at the figures which best serve them. In higher income neighborhoods, they will say that their kids will be in good company with other well-to-do families and be educated in a highly-enriching academic environment. In lower income neighborhoods, they will say that their kids will be in a school highly ranked by the Frasier Institute and that they will receive a highly ranked education, as a result.

I don't know...am I being un-PC?
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Where do you see mention of those adjustments? Maybe I am mistaken, but my understanding is that Fraser Institute doesn't raise or lower scores based on income. It does list expected scores based on income, but nowhere do I see on their site that those expected scores are actually factored into the actual score.

Anyhoo, most (but not all) upper middle class neighbourhoods have well rated high schools. However, it becomes more critical when you're talking neighbourhoods with less money. The school district question here can make or break a home sale.

To be honest, when I bought, I wasn't thinking along these lines, because we didn't have kids and weren't sure we would have kids. However, if I was buying in this neighbourhood today, the bottom line is I would not likely buy a house across the street in the other school district, despite the fact there are some nice houses there, unless it was way cheaper.
 
Admiral Beez said:
It's interesting how we use the premise of school district to value homes and neighbourhoods, when in many cases IMO what we really want is to live amoungst successful, professional, educated and I dare say English-1st language caucasian folks with both the will and means to be house proud and take care of their property. This certainly describes nearly every real estate area I can think of in the city of Toronto where the "school district" is used to gauge high property values.

However, can you imagine telling a realtor that your top criteria is upper middle class folks. Instead we ask for a top school district.
Click to expand...

It simply isn't true in our area that school is a proxy for SES/race etc. You can guess from my username where I live. The entire area is populated by pretty successful, professional, educated english-1st language caucasian folks. However, people in the area know exactly where the boundaries for each of the elementary schools are, and which schools have FI, which are alternative schools, which have good arts programs etc. Where parents choose to live within the general area (meaning the very broad area bounded by approximately the Humber river, Dundas St. W, the lake and Sorauren St) very closely reflects the philosophy of schooling they want for their kids.
 
Here's a perfect example of the folly of choosing your house by an arbitrary catchment area.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...posed-school-boundary-change/article20714740/

No children currently attending the school in question would be affected, as my inside source tells me current students would be grandfathered, but that's not what's got the locals pissed. They're seeing their property values at risk.
 
Admiral Beez said:
Here's a perfect example of the folly of choosing your house by an arbitrary catchment area.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...posed-school-boundary-change/article20714740/

No children currently attending the school in question would be affected, as my inside source tells me current students would be grandfathered, but that's not what's got the locals pissed. They're seeing their property values at risk.
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There's always a risk, but that's more the exception than the rule.
 
Admiral Beez said:
Here's a perfect example of the folly of choosing your house by an arbitrary catchment area.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...posed-school-boundary-change/article20714740/

No children currently attending the school in question would be affected, as my inside source tells me current students would be grandfathered, but that's not what's got the locals pissed. They're seeing their property values at risk.
Click to expand...

Interesting story. I also suspect that existing kids will be grandfathered to stay and perhaps their siblings will be entitled to enrol as well, but your 2nd point is also very valid, which wasn't mentioned in the article. Property values. You bet that will have an affect on their real estate.
 
James said:
Here's a link to the Toronto Star's article on this Garden Avenue Public School and Parkdale Public School issue: http://www.thestar.com/yourtoronto/...l_shift_proposal_upsets_parkdale_parents.html. It also links to the TDSB's notice of information which illustrates in more detail the current catchment areas and how the proposal will affect the residents: http://www2.tdsb.on.ca/wwwdocuments...Meeting Letter Boundary Change Garden v3 .pdf.
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Many families chose Garden over Howard or Fern and pay a whopping premium. Families like the one pictured in The Star article don't have anything to fear until the end of Gr. 6 as they will be grandfathered at Garden. HOWEVER, (and the TDSB staff reps will be evasive on this point!) the kids in the redefined catchment area will not be able to transfer to Fern for Gr. 7 and 8 with their Garden classmates as per the current pathway. They will have to go to Parkdale CI as grandfathering only works until graduation at the current school. This was a nasty shock to many parents as a result of a boundary change in the north of the Ward where parents thoughts that they would be unaffected, but now find that their kids are destined for Runnymede CI instead of Humberside CI.

I do think that this is about overcapacity at Parkdale PS (and the adjacent Queen Victoria PS), despite the Manon Gardiner quote in the article. Many schools in this area of the city run at 120% capacity and the TDSB doesn't bat an eye-lid. They have spent huge amounts on Parkdale PS and it is now half empty and they have to increase enrollment. It is job of the TDSB though to balance the student numbers around the schools to make best use of the resources they have. I think that we need to see more of these hard-headed decisions!

Putting my head above the parapet slightly - I wonder whether there is a sound financial argument to keep a school as small as Garden PS open at all - the MOE's funding model for elementary schools says that the ideal size is approximately 450. Garden PS only accommodates 292 students and is on a very restricted site so it can never be extended. The whole student body at Garden could be relocated to Parkdale PS tomorrow and that school would still only be at 65% of its capacity.
 
Eug said:
There's always a risk, but that's more the exception than the rule.
Click to expand...

Catchment area changes occur every year across the TDSB. Unless you're very near a school, assuming your house will forever be in its catchment area is folly.

And then there's the risk of schools canceling their catchment areas entirely. My kids used to attend Winchester PS in the English stream. However the school canceled the SK-6 English program entirely and expanded the French Immersion catchment area to the entire city, with attendence chosen by lottery, even if you live right next to the school.

Did we move to get a house within the arbitrary catchment area of a preferred school elsewhere? Of course not, as again, catchment is a moving target. Instead the kids go to Extended French in the beach(es). It's the best of both worlds, as we keep the Cabbagetown home we have loved for sixteen years, and I drop off the kids on my way to work at a great school with a great EF program.
 
With the greatest of respect Admiral you have written about changes in catchment areas as if they frequently affect households and there is nothing parents can do to participate in the process.

Catchment areas are actually remarkably stable compared to other cities. In order to make a change to the boundaries of a school catchment, the TDSB are required to hold a parent information/ consultation meeting and all affected households have to receive a notice detailing the change, and the date/time/ location of the meeting. If the change involves a French program the board is supposed to inform the FSLAC (French as a Second Language Advisory Committee) and receive feedback before it is approved by the Trustees. If the boundary change impacts a special ed. program, similar consultation is supposed to happen with SEAC. Boundary changes are a PIA to implement, and the TDSB never try to do more than a couple of them each year. The reports and documentation of the process of all boundary changes along with ARCs and PARCs held since 2008 are here: http://www.tdsb.on.ca/AboutUs/StrategyPlanning/CommunityConsultations/LocalProcessesAccommodationReviewsandProgram.aspx I can't imagine that the boundaries for any single school change more than once a decade or so.
French Immersion and Special Ed. paths are more fluid than the catchment boundaries, but basically are tied to the english catchments. FI provision in particular has been struggling to keep up with demand and everyone feels like it is a bit of a shell game. They are trying to implement more long-term strategic planning for FI but it is a case of shadow-boxing. (I came in at the tail-end of the Winchester reorganisation and I don't remember the ins and outs of why it happened, but I believe that it was done with a view to accommodating FDK and FI. It was very acrimonious and lessons were learned. It is not the typical situation.)

In comparison, in the UK addresses are not allocated to a specific school like they are in N. America, although in theory children should be able to go to their local school based on distance. Parents submit a form stating their preferences for schools listed in order. Each school (elementary and secondary) has its own ordered admissions criteria which is published in advance. The education authority responsible for allocation tries to place each child in the school which is highest on their parents preference list. Almost universally, schools accept children using the following ordered criteria - (a) special educational need for that school (b) children who are adopted or are in state care (like children's aid) (c) children who have siblings at the school (d) - if a faith school, whether the family practices the appropriate religion and finally (e) distance. This means that when you buy a house, you cannot be sure which house in an area will get you into a specific school as it depends on how many children have siblings and/or religion ahead of you. What is in practice a catchment area (although they don't call them that officially) can vary between 1.5 km and 0.3 km from the door of the school from year to year. If you miss getting into your nearest school, you are likely to also miss getting into the other schools nearby. Many very middle-class parents find themselves trekking miles across London to a school with a space, which invariably is in a non-"aspirational" area. The purchase premium parents pay to get a house next to a desirable school, and the cheating about addresses, is a wonder to behold...
 
It's probably complicated because the TDSB's policy offers busing at 1.6 km (1 mile) so if they redirect students, they end up busing kids all over. I think a lot of catchment areas are designed so that they don't have to bus anyone. In East York, they are always talking about closing Parkside Elementary but yet, there is that debacle regarding Secord and sub-standard portables the school is forced to use because they are over-capacity.
 
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