The "School District" question

[DarnDirtyApe]

The catchment area for Earl Beatty FI is pretty huge, but I assume that's typical for new programs that haven't had time to stabilize.

Given the demographic issues in the area I'm sure they will be forced to create another early FI program at another school and reduce the number of feeders to EB - already the school has 5 JK/SK classes, 3.5 grade 1 classes but only one each for the higher grades, with more little ones on the way. And it's not even a good school according to EQAO results!

 

[Bernoulli]

Blake is a half empty school (it is only a couple blocks from Pape school so there must have a been a huge population boom when Blake was built in 1970) so there is lots of room for FI there. They were supposed to have 2 SK FI classes this year but I wouldn't be surprised if it's now down to one.

 

[DarnDirtyApe]

Cool, thanks. Where do you find school enrollment and capacity? I tried and failed to find out that info...

 

[Bernoulli]

I don't think the enrollment and capacity numbers are available - or I don't know where to find them. I know Blake is half empty because I visited the school. I know that Earl Beatty is close to capacity because I visited that school as well.

ETA: You can go to each school's website and they usually list each class and the teacher's name so you can count the classes per grade. But, I think it's impossible to know how big a school actually is and whether they have excess capacity.

 

[zebec]

Today the person who owns Leslieville's 'Sushi Marche' posed an interesting question. He asked me, "Why don't all these new condo tower developers contribute money directly to the schools here in this neighbourhood, so we could have fine school buildings?" I had no adequate answer beyond the obvious taxes already paid. He had a good point, when one thinks of say, the antiquated washroom facilities and tiny gym at Bruce PS. I am done. The end.

 

[Eug]

The condo developers will contribute what they need to contribute, as required by the rules. While this may not be money and infrastructure for schools per se, they do contribute significantly to neighborhoods in some instances, such as with new or updated parks etc.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Today the person who owns Leslieville's 'Sushi Marche' posed an interesting question. He asked me, "Why don't all these new condo tower developers contribute money directly to the schools here in this neighbourhood, so we could have fine school buildings?" I had no adequate answer beyond the obvious taxes already paid. He had a good point, when one thinks of say, the antiquated washroom facilities and tiny gym at Bruce PS. I am done. The end.

Well, for starters, the local schools in many cases refuse to add the new condos to their catchment areas, thus excluding the kids in the condo.

 

[Bernoulli]

Well, for starters, the local schools in many cases refuse to add the new condos to their catchment areas, thus excluding the kids in the condo.

Wouldn't this be a TDSB Board decision? All addresses in Toronto are in some catchment area - if a school becomes overenrolled, the Board either has to add portables or reassign some part of the catchment area to another catchment area.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Wouldn't this be a TDSB Board decision?

Yes, and that's been their decision. Basically the TDSB is trying to preemptively remind potential condo buyers that just because there is a school next to their new condo, doesn't mean that school has space for their kids.

True, the TDSB has an obligation to house any kid in the catchment area, but if the school is full and there's no space for portables or other expansion, and then a developer builds several condos next door with an additional 800-1,000 kids, where can they go?

 

[James]

But wouldn't it all come down to the Ontario Municipal Board approving a developer's plans in the first place? Surely they would take the increased population into consideration when a condo is built in a neighborhood where the local school simply does not have sufficient space for more students.

 

[Bernoulli]

But wouldn't it all come down to the Ontario Municipal Board approving a developer's plans in the first place? Surely they would take the increased population into consideration when a condo is built in a neighborhood where the local school simply does not have sufficient space for more students.

My understanding is that the developers always think that retired couples and singles will move into the tiny condos they build now. But now that entire families with 3 kids are living in 2 bedroom spaces, the schools can't accommodate all the students. Therefore, they need to bus some of the students to an alternate school and the most efficient way of doing this is to bus the kids from one building (the condo development) which ends up with the condo kids not being able to walk to their local school.

My issue with Admiral Beez's post was the use of the word "refuse" because if the school can't accommodate that number of kids, they just can't and TDSB has to bus kids or redraw the catchment area.

 

[AnnetteMeetsJane]

But wouldn't it all come down to the Ontario Municipal Board approving a developer's plans in the first place? Surely they would take the increased population into consideration when a condo is built in a neighborhood where the local school simply does not have sufficient space for more students.

As part of the city planning process, the school boards are asked to respond with any comments. I am only familiar with Ward 7 (High Park/Roncesvalles/Swansea/Bloor West/Parkdale) where almost all of the schools are at or already significantly over capacity. Every planning proposal report arising from Ward 7 that goes to City Council for approval says that there is no room to accommodate additional students. Never once in this Ward, or anywhere else to my knowledge, has the City or the OMB turned down a development proposal due to a lack of school space.
To compound the problem, there is no mechanism to direct any money from the developer towards building additional space in a TDSB school space in the area because the overall enrollment in the board is shrinking. The province has pretty much frozen capital money to the board for the same purpose while criticizing the size of the TDSB transport bill. However, once the condo buildings are occupied, in the absence of physical space, the TDSB has no option other than picking up the ongoing operational cost of bussing children from new condo developments (which it opposed, but was ignored) to schools with capacity. I can specifically point to the example of children from the new condos at Lakeshore/Queensway and Windermere who may have thought that they were getting into Swansea PS, and instead find that their kids are bussed past several schools on their way to the first school with space at St. Claire W and Jane everyday. The city has just approved another condo building at Lakeshore and Windermere.

 

[AnnetteMeetsJane]

I don't think the enrollment and capacity numbers are available - or I don't know where to find them. I know Blake is half empty because I visited the school. I know that Earl Beatty is close to capacity because I visited that school as well.

ETA: You can go to each school's website and they usually list each class and the teacher's name so you can count the classes per grade. But, I think it's impossible to know how big a school actually is and whether they have excess capacity.

Information about capacity and enrollment should be available from your school Trustee. Contact Information here

 

[Admiral Beez]

It's interesting how we use the premise of school district to value homes and neighbourhoods, when in many cases IMO what we really want is to live amoungst successful, professional, educated and I dare say English-1st language caucasian folks with both the will and means to be house proud and take care of their property. This certainly describes nearly every real estate area I can think of in the city of Toronto where the "school district" is used to gauge high property values.

However, can you imagine telling a realtor that your top criteria is upper middle class folks. Instead we ask for a top school district.

 

[James]

It's interesting how we use the premise of school district to value homes and neighbourhoods, when in many cases IMO what we really want is to live amoungst successful, professional, educated and I dare say English-1st language caucasian folks with both the will and means to be house proud and take care of their property. This certainly describes nearly every real estate area I can think of in the city of Toronto where the "school district" is used to gauge high property values.

However, can you imagine telling a realtor that your top criteria is upper middle class folks. Instead we ask for a top school district.

As un-PC as your statement may come across, I have to say that it has merit. I've discussed this "school district" to "real estate" issue ad nauseam with many people and what we've concluded, and what we've all also noted here in this thread, is that it isn't really the school, per se, that is "better" but the kids in those neighborhoods who happen to go to those schools.

The interesting thing about the Fraser Institute scores, however, is that it applies adjustment factors based on expected academic scores in relation to household income. This lowers the school's score in higher income neighborhoods and raises them in lower income neighborhoods. What I've found to be most interesting is that parents in the wealthier neighborhoods don't care as much about where "their" school ranks in comparison to parents in the lower income neighborhoods who are more inclined to talk about how high their neighborhood school ranked in the study. All of this is anecdotal, of course.

I guess what I would surmise is that parents will always look at the figures which best serve them. In higher income neighborhoods, they will say that their kids will be in good company with other well-to-do families and be educated in a highly-enriching academic environment. In lower income neighborhoods, they will say that their kids will be in a school highly ranked by the Frasier Institute and that they will receive a highly ranked education, as a result.

I don't know...am I being un-PC?