The Future of Bombardier

[Mind_the_gap]

It really is sad to have witnessed the downfall of a truly great Canadian company like Bombardier in my lifetime…

I don’t think it would’ve been possible without the interference of foreign agents having been employed there, and sending all their knowledge back home.

A great example is how CRRC plagiarized Bombardier’s MultiLevel, and then undercut them in order to gain contracts for example in:

Philadelphia (SEPTA):

Source

Thankfully they got rid of the angry red lights above the cab from the renders:

Source

Then, Montréal (exo):

Source

Seems fittingly ominous that this happened to the first arrivals:

Source

Another example is the Airbus rip-off COMAC C919 (think CSeries/now A220):

Then there’s also the BYD electric bus fiasco courtesy of Denzil Minnan-Wong. Wonder how much he made from that lobbying…

 

[Bordercollie]

It really is sad to have witnessed the downfall of a truly great Canadian company like Bombardier in my lifetime…

I don’t think it would’ve been possible without the interference of foreign agents having been employed there, and sending all their knowledge back home.

A great example is how CRRC plagiarized Bombardier’s MultiLevel, and then undercut them in order to gain contracts for example in:

Philadelphia (SEPTA):

Source

Thankfully they got rid of the angry red lights above the cab from the renders:

Source

Then, Montréal (exo):

Source

Seems fittingly ominous that this happened to the first arrivals:

Source

Another example is the Airbus rip-off COMAC C919 (think CSeries/now A220):

Then there’s also the BYD electric bus fiasco courtesy of Denzil Minnan-Wong. Wonder how much he made from that lobbying…

We went through the same thing with Hyundai Rotem cars that were cheaper than Bi-levels and it turns out that the plows are defective and resulted in People being killed.
Next time around they won't be going with a Chinese knock off no matter how much money they save.

 

[Bordercollie]

We went through the same thing with Hyundai Rotem cars that were cheaper than Bi-levels and it turns out that the plows are defective and resulted in People being killed.
Next time around they won't be going with a Chinese knock off no matter how much money they save.

And look at Boston having problems with their new subway cars.

 

[SashaLemon]

We went through the same thing with Hyundai Rotem cars that were cheaper than Bi-levels and it turns out that the plows are defective and resulted in People being killed.
Next time around they won't be going with a Chinese knock off no matter how much money they save.

Hyundai Rotem is Korean of course.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

We went through the same thing with Hyundai Rotem cars that were cheaper than Bi-levels and it turns out that the plows are defective and resulted in People being killed.
Next time around they won't be going with a Chinese knock off no matter how much money they save.

OTOH it's not as if we haven't had Canadian organizations self destructing for 50 some years. We're quite capable of pulling off something as pathetic as the downfall of Bombardier on our own; quite frankly the feel it has to me is less some new low than the final domino falling in the collapse of our older "prestige" industries.

 

[SubHuman]

The Global 8000 business jet, when production begins in 2025, will be built at the new Bombardier Pearson facility. The article mentions it being scheduled to open this summer, though others are more vague in saying by the end of the year, and the thread on the Downsview lands mentions Northcrest "will gain full access to in 2024" regarding the Downsview runway, presumably when Bombardier has vacated the site and it gets decommisioned as an airfield.

 

[innsertnamehere]

My understanding is Bombardiers real last nail in the coffin was them overreaching with the C-series jet. They took on way too much financial risk for the project for a company which was already struggling and then struggled to get enough sales to recoup it.. when they sold it to Airbus they were more or less signing their death warrant.

 

[Mind_the_gap]

What makes me really wonder is how the European Union forbid Siemens’ offer to buy the Rail Division, citing ”lack of competition”, but then allowed both the Rail and Aircraft Divisions to fall into France’s hands (Alstom and Airbus respectively).

Bombardier (Adtranz) also headquartering its’ European (rail) operations in Berlin, really should’ve given the Germans the upper hand.

 

[lenaitch]

My understanding is Bombardiers real last nail in the coffin was them overreaching with the C-series jet. They took on way too much financial risk for the project for a company which was already struggling and then struggled to get enough sales to recoup it.. when they sold it to Airbus they were more or less signing their death warrant.

It seems that even being the government's bestest friend had its limits. The government is currently studying a replacement Maritime Long Range Patrol Aircraft. The current favourite is Boeing's P-8 Poseidon (373-800 platform), a fully formed aircraft and operational in several countries. The government is *considering* single sourcing. Bombardier is apparently lobbying that they should be allowed to bid using their Challenger and Global aircraft, in spite of the fact that they have nothing other than the civilian airframes.

It seems their addiction to government handouts is like Crack. No doubt they will get some money tossed at them for some other project as compensation ' for their troubles'.

 

[pdcstream]

It seems that even being the government's bestest friend had its limits. The government is currently studying a replacement Maritime Long Range Patrol Aircraft. The current favourite is Boeing's P-8 Poseidon (373-800 platform), a fully formed aircraft and operational in several countries. The government is *considering* single sourcing. Bombardier is apparently lobbying that they should be allowed to bid using their Challenger and Global aircraft, in spite of the fact that they have nothing other than the civilian airframes.

It seems their addiction to government handouts is like Crack. No doubt they will get some money tossed at them for some other project as compensation ' for their troubles'.

No, that's not true. The US Army already uses Challenger 650s on its Artemis platform (Aerial Reconnaissance and Targeting Exploitation Multi-Mission Intelligence System) since 2020. It's being deployed in Europe now. Another more recent platform, Ares, uses Bombardier's Global Express 6500. A third platform in development now is HADES and it again uses the Global Express 6500. Read these articles:
1) https://www.defensenews.com/miltech...-on-faster-jet-to-replace-guardrail-aircraft/
2) https://warriormaven.com/land/army-moves-to-high-tech-fixed-wing-jet-for-surveillance-isr

The Bombardier jets are modern planes, whereas the P-8 Poseidon uses an updated 1970s airframe in the Boeing 737s. Boeing and Bombardier aren't the developers of the defense tech...that's all third party. On the Global's, you can swap in or swap out what you want.

Sweden's GlobalEye surveillance plane from Saab uses Bombardier's Global 6000/6500.

 

[smallspy]

What makes me really wonder is how the European Union forbid Siemens’ offer to buy the Rail Division, citing ”lack of competition”, but then allowed both the Rail and Aircraft Divisions to fall into France’s hands (Alstom and Airbus respectively).

Bombardier (Adtranz) also headquartering its’ European (rail) operations in Berlin, really should’ve given the Germans the upper hand.

Siemens rail division was vastly larger than Alstom at that time. The new Alstom with Bombardier is about the same size as Siemens is now - maybe slightly bigger - once all of the required spin-offs have happened.

As for the aviation side, it was either Airbus or Boeing, really. And it could have gone either way in reality - both of those organizations are about the same size, although they prioritize different sectors.

Boeing and Bombardier aren't the developers of the defense tech...that's all third party.

I'll agree with you on Bombardier, but with Boeing, uhhh....come again? They're like the second largest defense contractor in the US.

Dan

 

[pdcstream]

Siemens rail division was vastly larger than Alstom at that time. The new Alstom with Bombardier is about the same size as Siemens is now - maybe slightly bigger - once all of the required spin-offs have happened.

As for the aviation side, it was either Airbus or Boeing, really. And it could have gone either way in reality - both of those organizations are about the same size, although they prioritize different sectors.



I'll agree with you on Bombardier, but with Boeing, uhhh....come again? They're like the second largest defense contractor in the US.

Dan

Referring specifically to the P-8A Poseidon, for instance, surveillance hardware, such as a radar by Raytheon, is largely made by a third party contractor.

 

[Mind_the_gap]

Siemens rail division was vastly larger than Alstom at that time. The new Alstom with Bombardier is about the same size as Siemens is now - maybe slightly bigger - once all of the required spin-offs have happened.

Highly reminiscent of the recent CN/CP battle over Kansas City Southern.

As for the aviation side, it was either Airbus or Boeing, really. And it could have gone either way in reality - both of those organizations are about the same size, although they prioritize different sectors.

Was Embraer ever a contender?

 

[lenaitch]

No, that's not true. The US Army already uses Challenger 650s on its Artemis platform (Aerial Reconnaissance and Targeting Exploitation Multi-Mission Intelligence System) since 2020. It's being deployed in Europe now. Another more recent platform, Ares, uses Bombardier's Global Express 6500. A third platform in development now is HADES and it again uses the Global Express 6500. Read these articles:
1) https://www.defensenews.com/miltech...-on-faster-jet-to-replace-guardrail-aircraft/
2) https://warriormaven.com/land/army-moves-to-high-tech-fixed-wing-jet-for-surveillance-isr

The Bombardier jets are modern planes, whereas the P-8 Poseidon uses an updated 1970s airframe in the Boeing 737s. Boeing and Bombardier aren't the developers of the defense tech...that's all third party. On the Global's, you can swap in or swap out what you want.

Sweden's GlobalEye surveillance plane from Saab uses Bombardier's Global 6000/6500.

The role of airborne ISR (intelligence/surveillance/reconnaissance) is to fly around and gather, process and disseminate data. I'm not sure they are capable of underwater detection but I don't know. They do not engage the enemy. Our maritime patrol aircraft are tasked with seeking out underwater threats, which can include dropping sonobouys, and, if necessary, deploy ordnance on them. In addition to needing the physical space and structure (i.e. internal bays) to store and launch torpedoes, the aircraft also need to have space for the associated operators and equipment which, if necessity, are separate from the other roles.

I realize that aircraft builders collaborate for the tech; I believe Bombardier has partnered with General Dynamics.

I would be more inclined to give them a nod if their proposal was more than an artists rendering and a fancy brochure/website; aka, vapourware.

I realize the P-8 is older, but saying it is an updated 1970s airframe is like saying a Ford E-Mach is an updated Edsel.

 

[smallspy]

Referring specifically to the P-8A Poseidon, for instance, surveillance hardware, such as a radar by Raytheon, is largely made by a third party contractor.

Fair enough.

But that's also seems to be a bit of a weird one-off, as in most cases Boeing is more than capable of supplying both interior and exterior hardware for most defense systems.

Was Embraer ever a contender?

Considering that they are a direct competitor to Bombardier, and were probably similar in size if maybe only slightly bigger - I couldn't see it happening.

Dan