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The best thing about a fall election...

Of all the pro-Harper statements I've just read, the general theme is "good management" of government.

If bringing same sex marriage back up as one of your first priorities is good management, okay.

If getting Canada close to its first yearly budget deficit (the government already had 1 quarter in the past year in deficit) is good management, okay.

Regarding foreign affairs, I didn't say Canada's gotten weaker, I said Canada's standing has eroded. In other words, people don't respect the Canadian foreign policy as they once did.

As far as being weak, Canada has committed more to Afghanistan than they have any other foreign war and peace project in many years. That's not the point.

Canada went from supporting pro-environmental policy on the world stage, now it stands against a worldwide consensus.

Harper hasn't done anything since Martin's health accord to improve hospital funding, he has totally ignored the GTA's needs, and he certainly has plenty of other areas where I don't agree.
 
Of all the pro-Harper statements I've just read, the general theme is "good management" of government.

It's clear from your statement that you might have completely missed the first eight years of the Chretien government - which was considered a success due to its good management. The conservatives are merely adopting something that carries some weight with the voters.

If getting Canada close to its first yearly budget deficit (the government already had 1 quarter in the past year in deficit) is good management, okay.

But then look at the economic situation. If you were in government, and you didn't like the idea of running a deficit during increasingly tight economic times, which programs or what funding would you cut? The Liberals didn't shy away from cutting social spending when they were in office.

Harper hasn't done anything since Martin's health accord to improve hospital funding, he has totally ignored the GTA's needs, and he certainly has plenty of other areas where I don't agree.

Martin quietly floated the idea of allowing private health services. After all, it was known that he purchased private health services in Montreal. One can assume that the inevitable political opposition to such an idea (creeping privatization) kept him from bringing up the idea more vocally. Otherwise, health funding will be a problem for some time to come, and it is hard to find any government - regardless of political stripe - that has not made some sort of error in this area.
 
It's pretty clear that the sole cause of the recent deficit is Harper's useless GST cuts.

Martin never purchased private health services. His longtime family doctor, who he saw using the normal medicare system, started up a private business on the side.
 
Exactly, and the Harper apologists here keep bringing up null and void points.

The GST cut is whats caused the budgetary problems.

I personally love Dion's policy, he's a ground breaker politician in the field of environmental policy daring to do what no one has dared to do before.

The only problem I have with Dion is just pure raw politics. I wished he would have pulled the plug on Harper's government back in the spring.
 
Hey, this end of the discussion started with the suggestion that polls show that the Liberals were going to take it.....all I am out to show that it isn't as clear cut as it looks. And to me, if an online poll in the Toronto Star of all places, says Harper is the most likeable.....that says something.....

I wouldn't even be slightly surprised if the CPC had a corps of political agents that vote in online polls and lurk in online discussion forums. The omnipresence of conservative forumers with detailed talking points on many different Canadian sites speaks of at least some level of organization.
 
The GST cut is whats caused the budgetary problems.

First off, there is no annual deficit. Second, even if there was, so what? I don't think anyone should deserve credit for sucking an extra 10 billion bucks that they didnt need, in the first place (or it would have been budgeted) out of the economy.

Also, it is very likely that the 2% GST cut delayed the onset of economic recession or will dampen it by providing sufficient economic stimulus, which was proportionally more than the stimulus package in the US.

I do agree that VATs and consumption taxes are more economically effective and that the Conservatives could have cut other taxes....income, capital gains, etc. But to argue that they should have maintained the surpluses when they didnt need those funds, is crazy.

Keep in mind that deficits and surpluses are assessed as percentages of GDP. The Liberals ran huge surpluses by this measure. If there is a recession and the Conservatives run a deficit, they will be close to the zero mark on this scale which shows good budgeting skills.

I personally love Dion's policy, he's a ground breaker politician in the field of environmental policy daring to do what no one has dared to do before.

I would have been sold, if this was an environmental policy. It's not. His own MPs have said as much. He is attempting an omnibus shift to the left under the guise of doing something green. I think that's sneaky and undemocratic. I support combating climate change and having a national day care plan, etc. But let's debate these things and how to pay for them and implement them individually.

The only problem I have with Dion is just pure raw politics. I wished he would have pulled the plug on Harper's government back in the spring.

And fight an election on fumes? The Liberals party is bankrupt right now, both fiscally and policy wise. I think they need a full term on the opposition benches to really renew themselves.....and come up with a red book type of platform again.
 
Instead of fighting an election on fumes of the last drops of oil, the Liberal party would be using electricity this time around. ;)
 
I don't think anyone should deserve credit for sucking an extra 10 billion bucks that they didnt need, in the first place (or it would have been budgeted) out of the economy.

While the surpluses are becoming less and less necessary, we have an infrastructure deficit that surely requires addressing more than tax cuts (after all, government shrank substantially relative to GDP over the past 15 years).

Also, it is very likely that the 2% GST cut delayed the onset of economic recession or will dampen it by providing sufficient economic stimulus, which was proportionally more than the stimulus package in the US.

I do agree that VATs and consumption taxes are more economically effective and that the Conservatives could have cut other taxes....income, capital gains, etc. But to argue that they should have maintained the surpluses when they didnt need those funds, is crazy.

The GST is the best tax we have. Almost any other tax cut would have more bang for the foregone buck. The accelerated capital cost allowances were welcome, though. I also applaud their goal of lowering corporate income tax rates. Personal income taxes are probably low enough, and consumption taxes (GST and/or carbon tax) should be increased.

I would have been sold, if this was an environmental policy. It's not. His own MPs have said as much. He is attempting an omnibus shift to the left under the guise of doing something green. I think that's sneaky and undemocratic. I support combating climate change and having a national day care plan, etc. But let's debate these things and how to pay for them and implement them individually.

It is 'doing something green'. This carbon tax will be more effective than Harper's cap-and-trade, and with less dead-weight loss, uncertainty, administration and corruption.

Also, it's ridiculous to describe the green shift as 'leftist'. I'm not sure you can ascribe a political wing to the policy, but from the POV of economics, it's a 'winner' in its pure form. Dion has slightly tainted it with some concessions for political expendiency, but it is much preferable to Harper's non-policy smokescreen BS.

And fight an election on fumes? The Liberals party is bankrupt right now, both fiscally and policy wise. I think they need a full term on the opposition benches to really renew themselves.....and come up with a red book type of platform again.

They haven't released their platform yet! Wait until you've seen it before you write them off.
 
While the surpluses are becoming less and less necessary, we have an infrastructure deficit that surely requires addressing more than tax cuts (after all, government shrank substantially relative to GDP over the past 15 years).

Most of that shrinkage was under the Liberals.... Though, I do agree that infrastructure spending is necessary, it isn't necessarily the job of the federal government. They have just knocked off 2% of the GST, why can't the provincial governments take up the slack if they feel that they need the revenue to attack the infrastructure deficit.


The GST is the best tax we have. Almost any other tax cut would have more bang for the foregone buck. The accelerated capital cost allowances were welcome, though. I also applaud their goal of lowering corporate income tax rates. Personal income taxes are probably low enough, and consumption taxes (GST and/or carbon tax) should be increased.

Pretty much agree with everything..... Personally, I'd like to see a Hong Kong type system....one tax rate for VAT, corporate, personal, etc. 10% on everything. Exempt low income and some household products, food, etc. One point I will raise though, I find it hilarious that the Liberals first campaigned on axing the GST and are now arch-defenders of it!

It is 'doing something green'. This carbon tax will be more effective than Harper's cap-and-trade, and with less dead-weight loss, uncertainty, administration and corruption.

Also, it's ridiculous to describe the green shift as 'leftist'. I'm not sure you can ascribe a political wing to the policy, but from the POV of economics, it's a 'winner' in its pure form. Dion has slightly tainted it with some concessions for political expendiency, but it is much preferable to Harper's non-policy smokescreen BS.

Personally, I think cap and trade is more effective, because there would be major issues in administering a carbon tax. For example, how do you work out how much to tax the refinery and how much to tax the driver burning the fuel. Plus, I think cap and trade would create a carbon futures market, that would benefit TO's financial district. And cap and trade would also address non-carbon contributors to global warming.

I am waiting to see how the Liberals tweak the policy. What I do not like is the idea that they are going to solve Canada's Kyoto gap on the back of the oil sands. To me that's a recipe for national discord in the vein of the NEP. And this time it might be worse with half a dozen provinces sucking in oil revenue.

I agree that Harper is delaying. And I don't like that. However, the public never held the Liberals feet to the fire on Kyoto, and things aren't really all that different now. Canadians talk about climate change, but we'll see how much the environment matters when the next recession hits. That being said, if the public was actually firm on this issue, then whoever the next government is, might actually do something.

They haven't released their platform yet! Wait until you've seen it before you write them off.

I always vote after reading all the platforms and considering what is best for T.O. and Canada both in terms of platforms and governance. So far, I am not liking what I see from the Green Shift. And I still feel like the Liberals haven't checked their arrogance. They act as though they deserve to govern, not that they should earn my vote through sound policies.
 
Personally, I'd like to see a Hong Kong type system....one tax rate for VAT, corporate, personal, etc. 10% on everything. Exempt low income and some household products, food, etc.

I think that is rather simplistic. Corporate rates should be lower than personal rates, for instance, since it is much harder to attract and retain capital investment than labour.

Personally, I think cap and trade is more effective, because there would be major issues in administering a carbon tax.

That's interesting, because cap and trade would require a large bureaucracy to prevent fraud. How else will we monitor how much a firm is emitting? They would have strong incentive to falsify data to allow the sale of their credits or reduce their need to purchase additional credits. A carbon tax would be far more difficult to cheat.

For example, how do you work out how much to tax the refinery and how much to tax the driver burning the fuel.

It's quite simple. When the refinery sells fuel, they are charged tax equivalent to the resultant CO2 emissions assuming the fuel is burned. The Liberal plan calls for it to be applied at the wholesale level.

Plus, I think cap and trade would create a carbon futures market, that would benefit TO's financial district. And cap and trade would also address non-carbon contributors to global warming.

Europe has had very mixed results with their carbon market. The problem is that prices are too volatile for firms to budget to with any degree of certainty. Initially the prices rose quite substantially, triggering the sale of additional credits to the point that the price is now quite low. It also leaves it susceptible to political interference. Even the intense call for a gasoline tax holiday was shrugged off this summer in both Canada and the US.

There is also no reason why a carbon tax would be any better or worse than cap-and-trade at addressing non-fossil fuel factors to climate change. I'm assuming you're primarily referring to agricutural/forestry practices, right?

I am waiting to see how the Liberals tweak the policy. What I do not like is the idea that they are going to solve Canada's Kyoto gap on the back of the oil sands. To me that's a recipe for national discord in the vein of the NEP. And this time it might be worse with half a dozen provinces sucking in oil revenue.

At present, the developments in the oilsands are lucrative enough that they will hardly be slowed (as it is, the main constraint is the province's infrastructure and ability to support the development, not any shortage of economically recoverable supply). It will, however, incent technologies that can extract the resource while burning less fossil fuel. There have been some very innovative techniques studied, and this trend will explode once there is the potential to save tens, if not hundreds of millions using emission reducing technologies.

If anything, the carbon tax would hit energy-intensive manufacturing industries such as steel, cement, forestry, etc. more than the oilsands. However, if the concern is great enough, I'd be satisfied in some compensating transfer to the respective provincial governments.

I agree that Harper is delaying. And I don't like that. However, the public never held the Liberals feet to the fire on Kyoto, and things aren't really all that different now. Canadians talk about climate change, but we'll see how much the environment matters when the next recession hits. That being said, if the public was actually firm on this issue, then whoever the next government is, might actually do something.

I'm not convinced that the carbon tax would be all that burdensome on average. Some sectors will be winners and others losers, but on average, I'd expect Canadians to be about even or perhaps slightly wealthier. Lower corporate tax rates will attract investment in industries that are not as carbon intensive. These firms will get the added bonus of increased after-tax incomes for many employees, likely lessening wage demands. They will use less energy, and more capital/labour. Sounds good to me!

I always vote after reading all the platforms and considering what is best for T.O. and Canada both in terms of platforms and governance. So far, I am not liking what I see from the Green Shift. And I still feel like the Liberals haven't checked their arrogance. They act as though they deserve to govern, not that they should earn my vote through sound policies.

I get that feeling, as well. However, I find Harper's arrogance palpable, as well as his contempt for many Canadian institutions. I supported Martin in the last campaign (largely because I was staunchly opposed to the GST cut), but when Harper won I was willing to give him a chance to earn my support. When one of his first acts as Prime Minister was to bribe a opposition MP to cross the floor with a cabinet post just hours after he was elected after railing so self-righteously against Martin's 'bribing' of Belinda Stronach. At least she could make the reasonable argument that she had been abandoned ideologically by her party by a move toward more socially conservative policies. David Emerson was only elected because he was a Liberal, and it was galling for his constituents to see him swear himself into Harper's cabinet. Their knives have been sharped for 30 months now, and he is wisely not seeked re-election.

To me, this act represented Harper's cynicism which was so dispiriting after he promised openness and accountability. I find it hard to much evidence of either in how he has governed.

Stephane Dion, for all his difficulties with the English language, I think has the potential to be a good Prime Minister. He seems more likely to deliver on what Harper promised in 2006.
 
Exactly, and the Harper apologists here keep bringing up null and void points.

The GST cut is whats caused the budgetary problems.

I personally love Dion's policy, he's a ground breaker politician in the field of environmental policy daring to do what no one has dared to do before.

The only problem I have with Dion is just pure raw politics. I wished he would have pulled the plug on Harper's government back in the spring.


You never answered my point about Chretien.

As for Dion's policy of taxing something to fund something else; there is nothing new here at all.

As for Dion not pulling the plug, it's because he would have lost the election. He has a very high likelihood of losing this election, as well.
 
I wouldn't even be slightly surprised if the CPC had a corps of political agents that vote in online polls and lurk in online discussion forums. The omnipresence of conservative forumers with detailed talking points on many different Canadian sites speaks of at least some level of organization.

Omnipresence? In your world, should conservatives be censored or barred from joining internet forums?
 
I think that is rather simplistic. Corporate rates should be lower than personal rates, for instance, since it is much harder to attract and retain capital investment than labour.

That's actually opposite of the mainstream Canadian view where we tax corporations and send the benefits to citizens who pay next to nothing for the benefits they derive. I forget the exact figures, but something like the top 10% of income tax filers pay for 50% of the governments revenue, or something like that....which is why those at the bottom have no problems with demanding more social programs. They're not paying for them. That being said, some services are best delivered by govts (child care, EI, etc).

That's interesting, because cap and trade would require a large bureaucracy to prevent fraud. How else will we monitor how much a firm is emitting? They would have strong incentive to falsify data to allow the sale of their credits or reduce their need to purchase additional credits. A carbon tax would be far more difficult to cheat.

Europe has had very mixed results with their carbon market. The problem is that prices are too volatile for firms to budget to with any degree of certainty. Initially the prices rose quite substantially, triggering the sale of additional credits to the point that the price is now quite low. It also leaves it susceptible to political interference. Even the intense call for a gasoline tax holiday was shrugged off this summer in both Canada and the US.

I am intrigued by the European system, its challenges, its successes and its failures. Perhaps we can learn from them. And having a carbon market also allows us to connect with those international markets, possibly leading to intermarket futures trading down the road and policy commonality on counter-climate change efforts.


It's quite simple. When the refinery sells fuel, they are charged tax equivalent to the resultant CO2 emissions assuming the fuel is burned. The Liberal plan calls for it to be applied at the wholesale level.

If they are charged the whole amount of the tax, then what proportion of it are they paying and what proportion am I the consumer paying....and in reality, will it probably be me paying the whole thing?

There is also no reason why a carbon tax would be any better or worse than cap-and-trade at addressing non-fossil fuel factors to climate change. I'm assuming you're primarily referring to agricutural/forestry practices, right?

Talking about agriculture....how are we gonna tax methane, which is worse for global warming than CO2. I would like to see farmers have to buy methane credits....though I suppose you could also have tax farmers per head of cattle at a standard rate.


At present, the developments in the oilsands are lucrative enough that they will hardly be slowed (as it is, the main constraint is the province's infrastructure and ability to support the development, not any shortage of economically recoverable supply). It will, however, incent technologies that can extract the resource while burning less fossil fuel. There have been some very innovative techniques studied, and this trend will explode once there is the potential to save tens, if not hundreds of millions using emission reducing technologies.

If anything, the carbon tax would hit energy-intensive manufacturing industries such as steel, cement, forestry, etc. more than the oilsands. However, if the concern is great enough, I'd be satisfied in some compensating transfer to the respective provincial governments.

This is what worries me. Implementation. As it stands, the Green Shift seems to be like an attempt to shift revenue from the oil sands to eastern consumers. Sure, some energy intensive industries would be hit hard. But with most of our emissions coming from resource production, one can guess which industries will be particularly targeted under this plan. As an Ontarian, I see benefits. As a Canadian, I don't want to see the country fracture along the lines of those with oil and those without.

I'm not convinced that the carbon tax would be all that burdensome on average. Some sectors will be winners and others losers, but on average, I'd expect Canadians to be about even or perhaps slightly wealthier. Lower corporate tax rates will attract investment in industries that are not as carbon intensive. These firms will get the added bonus of increased after-tax incomes for many employees, likely lessening wage demands. They will use less energy, and more capital/labour. Sounds good to me!

Can't disagree with you there. Anything that improves the energy efficiency of our economy is a good thing.


I get that feeling, as well. However, I find Harper's arrogance palpable, as well as his contempt for many Canadian institutions. I supported Martin in the last campaign (largely because I was staunchly opposed to the GST cut), but when Harper won I was willing to give him a chance to earn my support. When one of his first acts as Prime Minister was to bribe a opposition MP to cross the floor with a cabinet post just hours after he was elected after railing so self-righteously against Martin's 'bribing' of Belinda Stronach. At least she could make the reasonable argument that she had been abandoned ideologically by her party by a move toward more socially conservative policies. David Emerson was only elected because he was a Liberal, and it was galling for his constituents to see him swear himself into Harper's cabinet. Their knives have been sharped for 30 months now, and he is wisely not seeked re-election.

To me, this act represented Harper's cynicism which was so dispiriting after he promised openness and accountability. I find it hard to much evidence of either in how he has governed.

Stephane Dion, for all his difficulties with the English language, I think has the potential to be a good Prime Minister. He seems more likely to deliver on what Harper promised in 2006.

I am tempted to dislike the Conservatives for their shenanigans in parliament, lack of openness, etc. But a minority is an artificial situation. The Martin Liberals were rather hostile too. That's the nature of minorities, they tend to be more about prepping for elections than governing.

I don't really have anything against Dion. But I still don't feel like the rest of their party has done anything to clean house.

I am tempted to say let the Conservatives have a majority, and if they do anything reckless, hey there's always 2012. That's the beauty about democracy.
 
But then look at the economic situation. If you were in government, and you didn't like the idea of running a deficit during increasingly tight economic times, which programs or what funding would you cut? The Liberals didn't shy away from cutting social spending when they were in office.


Imo that is what a Govt should do and look at the rest of the G8. They are sinking in debt because they acted like a bunch of stupid idealists who think if you spend money you make more. Silly thought as it takes many years for any return to come back!!!

hey Chretien raised taxes and cut spending but imo if we stayed on course we would be worse off then the States now in Debt.

Deficits are simply bad, I cannot understand why some of you guys think they are okay.

Imo if you have a 10-40 billion deficit you need to cut or else in ten years you be bankrupt.


Imo Chretien was lazy and could off done much more, but he stayed out of Iraq and saved Canada from bankruptcy.
 

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