The best thing about a fall election...

[kEiThZ]

Not to upstage you, but I said that years ago to my Liberal friends who thought that theirs was the natural governing party. Bill Fox, who worked for Mulroney, once told me that Canada is a country of radical centrists, and that no party could get elected or survive in power for long unless they knew that. Looking at the history of this country since the Second World War, I believe that he is right.

Too bad for them, they didn't absorb it well enough to earn their majority.

 

[afransen]

Yeah...how many times has that strategy been proposed? It didn't work last time and it won't work this time.

For the average Canadian, Harper is less "scary" today than he was yesterday. A poll in the Toronto Star Opinion page shows most respondents think Stephen Harper is the most likeable federal leader. And this is the Star we are talking about here....

The Liberals forgot that elections are about politics not governing. Dion would have made a decent PM, but he is not a guy you want to run with. He simply lacks charisma and political instincts. This is all the worse when you have an Obama driving the left in the US.

Harper is going to get his minority again, while the Liberals learn that they can't take Canadians for granted any more.....

I believe you meant to say that more, not most, liked Harper than any other leader.

At any rate, the incumbent is usually in this position. Martin had a strong lead in leadership perception going into the 05/06 election.

 

[Hydrogen]

Harper is a pussycat today compared to his early Reform Party days. If he has to get in again, let it be as a minority.

 

[kEiThZ]

I believe you meant to say that more, not most, liked Harper than any other leader.

At any rate, the incumbent is usually in this position. Martin had a strong lead in leadership perception going into the 05/06 election.

From the TS website:

TODAY'S POLL
Who do you think is the most likeable federal party leader?


Point about Martin is true....though he had a lot more baggage on that sinking ship.....

 

[lordmandeep]

imo The Liberals should have learned that once the right united there was no way they were going to win 98% of the seats in Ontario again.

However they did in 1993, but that easily the most legendary election in Canadian history imo in terms of the results.


You had a party go from 175+ to 2 seats.
You had the Liberals almost double their seats.
You had the NDP being destroyed
You had a separatist party as the 2nd largest party
You had a regional extreme right wing reformist party form out of nowhere.



Imo if the Sponsorship scandal did not happen, the Liberals would have hold power for another decade easily imo.

 

[afransen]

From the TS website:

TODAY'S POLL
Who do you think is the most likeable federal party leader?


Point about Martin is true....though he had a lot more baggage on that sinking ship.....

You don't take online polls seriously, do you? A poll recently pegged Harper as the favourite of 31% of those with an opinion.

 

[Brandon716]

Polls can be very off-the-mark and totally wrong. Its just a snapshot in time and one week later the results could be significantly different.

Who really knows, a lot of what I've said is just a guessing game with some humor on the side.

I do think the Canadian left is becoming too fragmented. It was bad enough with the NDP-Liberal divisions, but bringing in the Green Party (and how the Bloc has affected Quebec in federal politics) makes things worse. When the right is now solidly unified behind one party, it makes it harder for the left to win.

I can't say that I disagree entirely. Look at me, here in the US I'm upset at the Democratic party in a year the Democrats should have unified left leaning and far-left unity.

I feel like I was into unity when unity wasn't cool, and now that its the "in thing" to unify the left movement in America, I feel out of place.

So its true, you can't expect NDP or Greens to vote Liberal just to get a majority.

 

[afransen]

I don't really get the NDP, myself. What is the appeal?

 

[Brandon716]

All I know is that if I were Canadian in this election, I'd definitely be voting Liberal. Stephen Harper is not a politician to deserve power in my opinion and the Canadian Liberals, while not perfect, would bring Canada back to a respectable position in the world with more moderate policies at home.

I feel Harper's alienation of the pro-Kyoto government policy before him has eroded Canada's standing abroad, and his domestic policies of getting the Federal government closer to deficit than any budget in the last 10 years are just bad all around.

The NDP stands up for civil rights in areas the Liberals seem weak, so I admire that. For example, the Liberals seemed to roll over and take it when Harper shoved the immigration bill through earlier this year. Now that an election has been called only a few months later at the end of summer, the Liberals are in no better position today to have an election than before.

Dion needs to grow some leadership skill.

 

[kEiThZ]

You don't take online polls seriously, do you? A poll recently pegged Harper as the favourite of 31% of those with an opinion.

Polls can be very off-the-mark and totally wrong. Its just a snapshot in time and one week later the results could be significantly different.

Hey, this end of the discussion started with the suggestion that polls show that the Liberals were going to take it.....all I am out to show that it isn't as clear cut as it looks. And to me, if an online poll in the Toronto Star of all places, says Harper is the most likeable.....that says something.....

 

[kEiThZ]

All I know is that if I were Canadian in this election, I'd definitely be voting Liberal. Stephen Harper is not a politician to deserve power in my opinion and the Canadian Liberals, while not perfect, would bring Canada back to a respectable position in the world with more moderate policies at home.

While I don't know how I am going to vote yet, I would never give the Liberals a blank check again. The scandals made me cancel my membership and now I will question every one of their policies before they earn my vote. I am sick of sheep braying "conservatives baaaad, liberals good". I think its good for democracy to have some change once in a while. I was worried that Harper would bring in some extreme right wing social policies. He hasn't done that. And he hasn't done anything fiscally right wing either....his tax cuts are way smaller than those of Chretien/Martin.

You suggest that Canada's position is weak in the world. Where was it under the Liberals, with reduced foreign aid and no effort to participate in anything with an emaciated military. Martin had started reversing some of that to his credit....but the job passed onto Harper. Is he a little too close to the US? Sure. But I like the principled stands he takes on countries like China. Somehow the Liberals talked a big game on human rights and then through them under the bus for the sake of trade. Canada's reputation will be maintained by actually living by our principles not by lecturing others and then not doing something.

I feel Harper's alienation of the pro-Kyoto government policy before him has eroded Canada's standing abroad, and his domestic policies of getting the Federal government closer to deficit than any budget in the last 10 years are just bad all around.

I had a politics prof who worked as Kyoto negotiator for the province of Ontario. He has some interesting stories about the federal negotiating. They were advised that 2% was all Ontario could do. They promised 6% just so Canada could look better than the States. Where is the independence in that policy? This is why Kyoto failed. It was unattainable from the start. And every province knew it. The Liberals had a decade in power. What's their record on Kyoto?

As for the deficit issue. I completely agree that the tax cuts were necessary. Why should the feds be allowed to run huge surpluses and bribe us with our own money annually? In Ottawa, all the government offices have a tradition called March Madness, where we try to spend all our unallocated funds as fast as possible to avoid them being retracted. All the cuts really did was remove surplus funds from most government ministries. Everybody in this town knows that. The federal government was running 10 billion dollar surpluses while the provinces and cities were running on fumes. The feds have now made room for the provinces to raise taxes.

Personally, during a downturn, I want the government to run a deficit, instead of raising taxes or cutting spending that would reduce stimulus to the economy. Running billion dollar surpluses and paying off debt during a downturn does not make good economic sense. Canada still has sound fiscal policies, the only change was the budget is closer to 0...and that's where it should be. Any finance minister worth his salt would avoid large surpluses (which take money out of the economy) just as he should large deficits.

The NDP stands up for civil rights in areas the Liberals seem weak, so I admire that.

The NDP stands for policies that benefit only big labour and a belief in taxing the middle class out of existence. Their union friendly policies in Toronto show where a future NDP government would take us. On a national scale, those policies would be disastrous.

For example, the Liberals seemed to roll over and take it when Harper shoved the immigration bill through earlier this year.

The immigration bill that proposed offering permanent residency to every student (a Liberal idea) and the one that proposed increasing some powers for the minister of immigration (also a Liberal idea). They codified practices that were already in place so that you can challenge them in court. I call that honourable. You can call that whatever you want. Perhaps you like the system before where entry could be denied for no reason.

Now that an election has been called only a few months later at the end of summer, the Liberals are in no better position today to have an election than before. Dion needs to grow some leadership skill.

I think he needs political skills. Policy wonks make good leaders in my opinion. Not personable leaders but good leaders.

What bothers me the most is how little was done for Ontario and Toronto specifically by the Liberals. One would have thought that a party that was elected with half to two thirds of its seats from Ontario, they would have done more for us. Yes, the Conservatives haven't been forthcoming either. But at least they have an excuse....few seats in Ontario, none in the 416. What was the Liberals excuse for doing nothing for Ontario while in power for over a decade?

 

[lordmandeep]

But I like the principled stands he takes on countries like China. Somehow the Liberals talked a big game on human rights and then through them under the bus for the sake of trade

Harper is actually worse.

He does not care what China does, but he just puts on a show to look all tough and strong and makes all think he is on the moral high ground and he wants more trade with China.

Imo, people like Harper do not truly believe in such idealistic principles and its rather naive of you to think he really does.

 

[kEiThZ]

Harper is actually worse.

He does not care what China does, but he just puts on a show to look all tough and strong and makes all think he is on the moral high ground and he wants more trade with China.

Imo, people like Harper do not truly believe in such idealistic principles and its rather naive of you to think he really does.

Then he would be no different than the Liberals....not necessarily worse....

Of course Harper wants trade with China. Who doesn't? But he has made human rights more of an issue. Which is more than you can say for the Liberals.

I did appreciate his stance on the olympics....I would not want the Prime Minister of Canada lending legitimacy to all that has happened in China with his attendance. Yet we had Chretien coming out and criticizing Harper for not attending. How is that a principled stance?

 

[Hydrogen]

All I know is that if I were Canadian in this election, I'd definitely be voting Liberal. Stephen Harper is not a politician to deserve power in my opinion and the Canadian Liberals, while not perfect, would bring Canada back to a respectable position in the world with more moderate policies at home.

Harper's party was elected to power by the voters of the country, so he then "deserved" to lead the government. The Liberals took Dion as a leader, not because he was the best candidate, but that he was the best compromise for a party that was already losing its way, mired by scandal, and hobbled by an indecisive former leader who created considerable internal damage. Other than its contentious and suspect green taxation policy, the Liberals are running on empty.

I don't see anything appealing about the NDP in terms of policy. Their supposedly high ideals on human rights are always mostly theoretical. Their economic policy is of another era.

The Green Party is a success built upon a public relations campaign on all things green as being good. Other than that, it's all ad hoc policy.

The Bloc is not a national party and never will be. That makes them pointless.

At this juncture, most Canadians want good management from their government. If the incumbents are shown to be providing that, then they will have the upper hand in an election. Any radical campaign - like a new tax scheme - will have to look damn good in order to convince voters who don't automatically vote on the basis of party allegiance and nothing more.

 

[lordmandeep]

imo I don't mind if Harper wins but I do not want him to win a majority.


Then the Liberals will kick out their leader and get someone decent and then have another election 1-2 latter.