Standard vs TTC gauge; An LRT Standard in Ontario?

[Voltz]

Should be standard gauge. What happens in a few years when the LRT cars need to be replaced and there's no manufacturer for the train cars because the track is incompatible?

Didn't this mistake happen with the Scarborough SRT? Non-standard gauge and technology, and now they can't find a car replacement because it was a non-standard test of a new technology? I'm sure they could find a manufacturer of the cars in Canada, maybe purchase them from Bombardier if they have something, but make sure its standardized technology.

Replacing them in a few years? you mean 25 years or more, and it really in not any problem to built a new vehicle with TTC gauge vs standard.

The SRT is standard gauge, and replacement cars are available, they just need to lengthen the stations and eliminate a curve originally designed for streetcars.

 

[Chuck]

I don't know much about the streetcar manufacturing process, but common sense suggests that we are massively underestimating the added cost of using TTC gauge.

Firstly, consider design. All of the ready to order parts that were designed to be standard gauge would have to be re-engineered and the parts redesigned in order to accommodate the TTC gauge. Before assembly even begins, you must factor in additional design costs.

During the assembly stage, one can assume that the streetcar manufacturing process is highly mechanized and uses specialized, purpose built machines. Several machines could be rendered useless, or at best have to be adjusted, to not only construct TTC gauge parts, but work with them along the entire length of the assembly line. This means more engineering design must be carried out, and possibly new multimillion machines built. Remember that after the TTC's order is complete, the existing machines have to be put back, otherwise the plant is useless.

Once the streetcars reach a certain stage of production, it is possible that they are wheeled around the plant on their own 8 wheels. Well, forget about using the existing track network in the plant. This will have to be wripped up completely and replaced with TTC gauge tracks, again requiring engineering design, manufacture, and installation for one time use.

Finally, you can assume that all plants have a testing facility to make sure that the streetcars operate as specified. Once again, the existing standard gauge testing equipment is useless, and must be completely redesigned, wripped up, replaced, then converted back to standard gauge.

As mentioned numerous times above, the construction of the TTC's fleet could require so many modifications to the existing plant that it could no longer build and test standard gauge streetcars without being overhauled once again. Therefore, you can be sure that the cost per streetcar has been inflated once again in order to pay for the plant's conversion back to standard gauge.

 

[DSC]

The gauge of the downtown streetcar network is not going to be changed and it will continue to use single-ended cars. The new LRT (Transit City) network will apparently use double-ended cars and it will not be connected to the 'legacy network" so it could use a different gauge.

Streetcar and railcar manufacturers are very accustomed to building different guages and it certainly does not mean they have to re-engineer the whole car. There are not great showrooms of streetcars sitting somewhere ready to be purchased, all new streetcars are built to fill an order and manufacturers seem to have no problem in coping with minor differences in the gauge, or other things. It may be tidier to have everything uniform but remember "Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds"

Take a look at the number of gauges in Wiki. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rail_gauges

 

[nfitz]

Actually, the Halton County Radial Railway, near Rockwood, also uses TTC/Ontario gauge.

Was the entire streetcar line from Toronto to Guelph using TTC gauge, or did they adjust the gauge later on at the museum?

 

[ShonTron]

Actually, the Halton County Radial Railway, near Rockwood, also uses TTC/Ontario gauge.

There's no such thing as 'Ontario' gauge! Only the TTC used it! There were dozens of street railways in Ontario* and none, except those operated by the TTC/TRC/TCR used anything other than standard (or in one or two cases narrow) gauge. The radial railways, when operated by Ontario Hydro, were converted to standard gauge, the TTC, after taking them over again, converted them back.

The HCRY uses the right of way (but not original tracks) of the Toronto Suburban, which always used standard gauge as an entity that was always separate from the TTC.

No way should Ottawa, Kitchener, Hamilton be forced to share the TTC's gauge just because the TTC uses it. It doesn't make sense. There's a good case that the suburban LRT lines, possibly even including Peel and York, should be compatible, but that's it.

* Street railways included Oshawa, Kitchener-Waterloo, Guelph, Hamilton, Brantford, Sarnia, the local operations of the NS&T in St. Catharines and Niagara Falls, Welland, Kingston, Belleville, Ottawa, Cornwall, Peterborough, Sudbury. Fort William, Port Arthur, Windsor, London, St. Thomas, Sault Ste. Marie, Chatham. There were also interurbans with street-running sections elsewhere.

 

[Railization]

No way should Ottawa, Kitchener, Hamilton be forced to share the TTC's gauge just because the TTC uses it. It doesn't make sense. There's a good case that the suburban LRT lines, possibly even including Peel and York, should be compatible, but that's it.

What advantage do they get from using standard gauge though? None. It's not like they can use existing freight lines, the FRA will see to it that that never happens. Standard gauge has no advantage, TTC gauge does.

While no line from Toronto will reach Ottawa, that much is certain, but if Mississauga say in 25 years or something, has an LRT network extending into Oakville, and Hamilton has a network extending into Burlington, it makes sense to have the entire GTHA on the same TTC gauge.

Kitchener, maybe it wouldn't connect to anything, but maybe it would. There are people out there actively advocating for longer-distance LRT lines. I think that such routes should be covered by GO where such trunk lines are existing, but if existing lines are not present, in that case LRT might make sense. What will happen in the future with peak oil? It leaves doors open for LRT in the future.

It's a case of better safe than sorry. There is nothing lost by adopting TTC gauge as a Light-Rail standard in the province. There is no cost savings by going with standard gauge, there's only the risk of restricted integration of services. It doesn't make sense to not go with TTC gauge.

 

[Hipster Duck]

What advantage do they get from using standard gauge though? None. It's not like they can use existing freight lines, the FRA will see to it that that never happens. Standard gauge has no advantage, TTC gauge does.

I don't get your argument. You can make exactly the same case for using standard gauge in Ottawa.

Also, why has nobody responded to my original point about TTC voltage versus the rest of North America's LRT systems? I would imagine that this would have as much of an effect on Ontario's future light rail lines as track gauge would.

 

[Railization]

I don't get your argument. You can make exactly the same case for using standard gauge in Ottawa.

I already conceded connections wouldn't be made with Ottawa, so I don't get your argument.

 

[ShonTron]

What advantage do they get from using standard gauge though? None. It's not like they can use existing freight lines, the FRA will see to it that that never happens. Standard gauge has no advantage, TTC gauge does.

Ottawa currently has a diesel light rail using a standard gauge railway. Part of that route was to be used in earlier proposals for light rail, including the downtown segment (which was very close to getting built), and across the river to Gatineau. The little freight that uses that line has no problem working around the Ottawa LRT. The FRA, being a regulatory agency of the US Department of Transportation, has no say on whether Ottawa can use existing freight lines. Transport Canada, the agency that actually has the say here, already gave the exemption.

Ottawa would certainly be smart to make its own decisions. They might even be more likely to share operations with Quebec, especially if LRT crosses the Ottawa River. Montreal will certainly not go TTC-gauge.

 

[Railization]

Ottawa currently has a diesel light rail using a standard gauge railway. Part of that route was to be used in earlier proposals for light rail. The little freight that uses that line has no problem working around the Ottawa LRT. The FRA, being a regulatory agency of the US Department of Transportation, has no say on whether Ottawa can use existing freight lines, because Transport Canada, the agency that actually has the say here, already gave the exemption.

You're suggesting freight lines in the GTA have the spare capacity between freight trains and GO Trains to allow LRT on them? I don't think there's a chance of that. Lines that are so lightly used they could be abandoned is one thing, and that's the case in Ottawa, but in the Golden Horseshoe, we actually run commuter trains on these routes (e.g. Newmarket, Uxbridge, Weston subs see little freight traffic, if any). Even the Belleville Don Branch, currently not used for anything, is proposed to have GO service of some form or another in future, and that rules out LRT on that route. Most of the freight lines don't actually go through urban areas, CP Galt in Mississauga and CN Weston in Toronto are exceptions, not the rule. Most lines can't have their freight operations shifted to late night only either, Ottawa's case is the exception that proves the rule. It's also diesel in Ottawa, so it isn't conventional LRT anyway, as they're typically electric.

 

[Railization]

bah

 

[Hipster Duck]

I already conceded connections wouldn't be made with Ottawa, so I don't get your argument.

What advantage do [Ottawans] from using standard gauge though? None. It's not like they can use existing freight lines, the FRA will see to it that that never happens. Standard gauge has no advantage, TTC gauge does.

Okay, so if you concede that Ottawa will never have a connection to a system that is TTC gauge, why would TTC gauge have an advantage in Ottawa that standard gauge does not?

 

[Railization]

Okay, so if you concede that Ottawa will never have a connection to a system that is TTC gauge, why would TTC gauge have an advantage in Ottawa that standard gauge does not?

What advantage does Ottawa get from standard gauge over TTC gauge when it won't connect to anything anyway? Ottawa isn't going to connect to Montreal by LRT, the HSR would be handling that traffic.

Ottawa's surrounding area doesn't have the concentration of communities the GGH does. So there's no point in comparing it. If the O-Train is your concern, make an exception for legacy lines using abandoned freight corridors and treat them as a separate class, but new lines, whether built on the street or in a separate dedicated corridor, should conform to the standard. O-Train can't use the same vehicles as an on-street LRT network anyway, it's diesel, and so would stay on its own separate network as long as it sticks with diesel rolling stock.

 

[MegaMax]

Kitchener, maybe it wouldn't connect to anything, but maybe it would. There are people out there actively advocating for longer-distance LRT lines. I think that such routes should be covered by GO where such trunk lines are existing, but if existing lines are not present, in that case LRT might make sense. What will happen in the future with peak oil? It leaves doors open for LRT in the future.

Bring back the Grand River Railway? I can't wait to ride light rail to Kitchener! Maybe it can follow the Guelph line and use the museum trackage (which uses TTC gauge!)

 

[Hipster Duck]

If the O-Train is your concern, make an exception for legacy lines using abandoned freight corridors and treat them as a separate class, but new lines, whether built on the street or in a separate dedicated corridor, should conform to the standard. O-Train can't use the same vehicles as an on-street LRT network anyway, it's diesel, and so would stay on its own separate network as long as it sticks with diesel rolling stock.

First of all, the O train could be converted to a light rail line, provided it uses standard (1,435 mm) gauge equipment. Are you suggesting having two separate divisions for a city that might have a grand total of 50 light rail vehicles?

Note that 1,495mm is a "standard" gauge in the following North American cities with LRT: Toronto.

1,435 mm (aka: standard gauge) is a standard gauge in the following North American cities with light rail vehicles: Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, Tacoma, Sacramento, San Francisco, San Jose, Los Angeles, San Diego, Phoenix, Tucson, Salt Lake, Denver, St. Louis, Minneapolis, Kenosha, Dallas, Houston, Galveston, New Orleans, Tampa, Charlotte, Baltimore, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Newark, Hudson County NJ, Boston, Buffalo and Cleveland.