Standard vs TTC gauge; An LRT Standard in Ontario?

[rbt]

Trolley wire is strung in a straight line while catenary wire zig zags, to avoid wearing a groove into the pantograph. It's easier to change than a track gauge, but it has problems nonetheless.

Fleet Street is zig zagged and functional for both systems. Trolly poles are quite capable of bending to stay on the wire for a small deflection.

 

[Hipster Duck]

TC could, of course, be built with larger radii, clearances, etc., and still use TTC gauge.

What benefit is there to having two gauges for surface level transport in one city? Why separate the TC lines from the "legacy" network? What benefit accrues from restricting the interchangeability of at least some equipment? Why make something more complex than it needs to be?

There is an established gauge, that works, and interferes with nothing why change? Because London & Paris have lines that have different equipment?

This has nothing to do with being London or Paris. I'm not that shallow. You did, however, address my point in your post: if TC vehicles are too large to corner a legacy streetcar curve, they won't be able to travel on the old streetcar network to begin with. Therefore, why bother sharing the same, obscure track gauge?

Actually, it hasn't come up in discussion yet, but just as importantly, what voltage do we want TC to use? The 600 V DC that is used by the TTC, and only the TTC, or the 750V DC that practically every other light rail operator in North America currently uses?

Although the legacy network uses a specific track gauge and voltage, it would be much more flexible if Transit City used a standard gauge and voltage. For one, it would allow surplus vehicles to be acquired from another city with much more ease.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

but what if you need to run streetcars from the legacy network on TC lines for some reason?

look at the problems the SRT caused with its standard gauge. but i understand that it's not just the standard gauge but even the curves that cause problems for that line.

 

[Railization]

This has nothing to do with being London or Paris. I'm not that shallow. You did, however, address my point in your post: if TC vehicles are too large to corner a legacy streetcar curve, they won't be able to travel on the old streetcar network to begin with. Therefore, why bother sharing the same, obscure track gauge?

Actually, it hasn't come up in discussion yet, but just as importantly, what voltage do we want TC to use? The 600 V DC that is used by the TTC, and only the TTC, or the 750V DC that practically every other light rail operator in North America currently uses?

Although the legacy network uses a specific track gauge and voltage, it would be much more flexible if Transit City used a standard gauge and voltage. For one, it would allow surplus vehicles to be acquired from another city with much more ease.

TC vehicles might not be able to use the legacy trackage, but legacy fleet could use TC trackage, that's why you bother. All you have to do is build a loop in the odd strategic spot in the TC network.

 

[doady]

It makes sense for system to standardize, have the one same type of vehicle to lower cost for purchase and maintenance. You don't see any system buying multiple models of buses for example. They stick with one kind so orders can be larger and buses share the same parts. I always thought of Transit City somewhat as an extension of the existing streetcar; that's what it made it more acceptable. But all this talk of making it completely separate just shows why it is such stupid plan. They already that mistake with Scarborough RT, which was originally supposed to be streetcar, and just look at all the problems it has now. And it is forcing the TTC to spend a lot of money. Let's not make that mistake again.

 

[andomano]

but what if you need to run streetcars from the legacy network on TC lines for some reason?

Excuse my ignorance on this issue, but was this the justification used for building the subway using TTC gauge? I don't recall there ever being a connection between the subway and streetcar systems, in case a streetcar needed to run on the subway tracks for some reason.

None of the current vehicles use the same shops as each other (except for the RT when needing heavy maintenance), so why should the TTC adopt a standard size that can fit all vehicles?

 

[jks]

Because it is so much simpler than having more orphan equipment!!

 

[W. K. Lis]

Excuse my ignorance on this issue, but was this the justification used for building the subway using TTC gauge? I don't recall there ever being a connection between the subway and streetcar systems, in case a streetcar needed to run on the subway tracks for some reason.

None of the current vehicles use the same shops as each other (except for the RT when needing heavy maintenance), so why should the TTC adopt a standard size that can fit all vehicles?

There was the time two red Gloucester subway cars were towed on the streetcar tracks, when they were delivered. And a couple of old PCC streetcars were converted to rail grinding cars for the subway and streetcar tracks. But that would be nitpicking.

 

[Voltz]

I fail to see how track gauge could make any difference at all, the TTC's LRV orders are going to be the largest ever made, making all the new LRV's in TTC Gauge will not cost one extra cent.

Why should we be worried about the TC Vehicles being compatible with lines from other cities, when there will already be a large existing network in our own city? Especially when the TTC as already been able to buy and easily convert streetcars from other cities in the past.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

i say it's better to keep one track gauge. 1495mm.


i know the legacy network has tight curves which the TC cars might not be able to handle but you never know, maybe one day they'll fix those curves so the legacy track will be compatible or one day we'll get TC cars which could be compatible on the legacy network with its curves.

we might kick ourselves in the ass one day if we decide to adopt two types of track.

 

[Second_in_pie]

i say it's better to keep one track gauge. 1495mm.


i know the legacy network has tight curves which the TC cars might not be able to handle but you never know, maybe one day they'll fix those curves so the legacy track will be compatible or one day we'll get TC cars which could be compatible on the legacy network with its curves.

we might kick ourselves in the ass one day if we decide to adopt two types of track.

I agree with you there. It's probably better to play it safe based on our existing system opposed to the systems of other cities.

However, if there wasn't any chance that any TC streetcars would be running on the downtown streetcars, I would probably have to change my mind completely, because there's not really any pro anymore. I would say just wait until we need to replace the current streetcar tracks or get those transit malls going (which I hope will come soon) and switch over to Standard Gauge for everything, including everywhere else in the GTHA.

 

[Transportfan]

W. K. Lis There was the time two red Gloucester subway cars were towed on the streetcar tracks, when they were delivered. And a couple of old PCC streetcars were converted to rail grinding cars for the subway and streetcar tracks.

Actually, the main reason the subway uses TTC gauge was because the subway was supposed to be a "streetcar/subway" system using streetcars rather than subway trains.

 

[dunkalunk]

Kitchener and Toronto are never going to be connected by a LRT line, Even via Hamilton. We need to protect what agricultural land we have by not building (developing urban areas where LRT is viable) outside the greenbelt. Plus, there's the undelveopable land of the escarpment.

Hamilton and Toronto is even debatable.

Toronto, York Region, Durham and Peel should have the same gauge. By the time GTA and Hamilton LRTs are approaching each other, the tracks will have to be torn up due to fatigue.

What gauge transit agencies decide within their sphere of influence is their business, although, for obvious reasons of connectivity, the GTA should have the TTC gague as standard.

 

[Brandon716]

Should be standard gauge. What happens in a few years when the LRT cars need to be replaced and there's no manufacturer for the train cars because the track is incompatible?

Didn't this mistake happen with the Scarborough SRT? Non-standard gauge and technology, and now they can't find a car replacement because it was a non-standard test of a new technology? I'm sure they could find a manufacturer of the cars in Canada, maybe purchase them from Bombardier if they have something, but make sure its standardized technology.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Actually, the Halton County Radial Railway, near Rockwood, also uses TTC/Ontario gauge. The HCRR is owned and operated by the Ontario Electric Railway Historical Association (OERHA), a non-profit, educational organization. The non-profit organization converted their non-Toronto collection (ie., London & Port Stanley Railway, Hamilton Street Railway, Oshawa Railway, etc.) to 1495mm. So its not just Toronto with 1495mm.