Standard vs TTC gauge; An LRT Standard in Ontario?

[dunkalunk]

If the province actually sticks with the places to grow plan, there would be no reason to connect Kitchener and Hamilton, or Kitchener and Brampton with a light rail line. There would be no population base between the cities to support it. Hamilton I can understand to a certain extent, but Waterloo Region is way out there.

Commuter rail I can understand and even encourage, and I would definitely support a new heavy rail line between Kitchener and Hamilton. However, I oppose light rail due to the type of service it provides. Any new intercity track needs to built to higher specifications providing services with far less stops.

Even if LRT were built to TTC gauge in Waterloo Region, there would be no way for the TTC to practically loan vehicles without loading them onto a trailer. At least with standard gauge, you are able to tow the vehicles for delivery.

And as was already mentioned, Voltage is probably as important as rail gauge. I would argue that this would be even more important. The municipalities building light rail systems in Ontario should decide which technology they want to go with and collectively buy vehicles and caternary systems. Also, they should encourage whoever is providing the vehicles to set up shop here.

 

[Railization]

First of all, the O train could be converted to a light rail line, provided it uses standard (1,435 mm) gauge equipment. Are you suggesting having two separate divisions for a city that might have a grand total of 50 light rail vehicles?

Note that 1,495mm is a "standard" gauge in the following North American cities with LRT: Toronto.

1,435 mm (aka: standard gauge) is a standard gauge in the following North American cities with light rail vehicles: Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, Tacoma, Sacramento, San Francisco, San Jose, Los Angeles, San Diego, Phoenix, Tucson, Salt Lake, Denver, St. Louis, Minneapolis, Kenosha, Dallas, Houston, Galveston, New Orleans, Tampa, Charlotte, Baltimore, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Newark, Hudson County NJ, Boston, Buffalo and Cleveland.

You're suggesting that Ottawa's network is going to connect to Western Canada or the US? Where else in the world standard gauge is used for LRT is completely irrelevant. Especially US cities, whose LRV assembly plants wouldn't conform to the Canadian Content requirement. The Western Canada systems are far too far away to be of any relevance as well. With the likelihood being extremely high that a brand new plant will be built in Ontario for LRV manufacturing (Thunder Bay doesn't have the capacity), it makes the most sense for that plant to be pumping out TTC gauge vehicles, since such vehicles are going to be going to Toronto, Peel Region, York Region, and likely Hamilton and Kitchener. If they're all the same gauge, fabulous! Keeps the doors open in the future. In Ottawa's case, it's on a "legacy" freight track network, so like I said, make an exception for legacy lines if O-Train is your concern. Considering funding for LRT was withdrawn from Ottawa not long ago, O-Train isn't going to be electric anytime soon anyway.

 

[Railization]

Commuter rail I can understand and even encourage, and I would definitely support a new heavy rail line between Kitchener and Hamilton. However, I oppose light rail due to the type of service it provides. Any new intercity track needs to built to higher specifications providing services with far less stops.

LRT isn't required to have frequent stops, but is best-suited for frequent stops.

A heavy rail line from Kitchener to Hamilton via Cambridge and Waterdown already exists (a CP route).

 

[dunkalunk]

If the idea is to have a passenger service between Waterloo Region and Hamilton, this route is not practical. It may be fine for freight, but this route could never be directly competitive with existing road routes. The route is physically 16 km longer than the fastest road route (401/Hwy 6) and would never be able to reach average highway speeds due to the radius curves on the line and competing freight traffic. This is why I would support a new, straighter connection.
But this is an entirely different conversation.

I hold my point that a light rail line connecting Hamilton and Waterloo Region would be entirely impractical for the distance covered, and that there will never be the population density to make a light rail line practical.

Building a light rail line would exclude any heavy vehicles from ever using the track. You can still run light rail vehicles on heavy rail track provided there is an engine unit/compatible caternary system and the gauge remains the same.

[edit] If the systems are never going to interface, it doesn't matter what the rail gauge is.

 

[Hipster Duck]

You're suggesting that Ottawa's network is going to connect to Western Canada or the US? Where else in the world standard gauge is used for LRT is completely irrelevant. Especially US cities, whose LRV assembly plants wouldn't conform to the Canadian Content requirement. The Western Canada systems are far too far away to be of any relevance as well. With the likelihood being extremely high that a brand new plant will be built in Ontario for LRV manufacturing (Thunder Bay doesn't have the capacity), it makes the most sense for that plant to be pumping out TTC gauge vehicles, since such vehicles are going to be going to Toronto, Peel Region, York Region, and likely Hamilton and Kitchener. If they're all the same gauge, fabulous! Keeps the doors open in the future. In Ottawa's case, it's on a "legacy" freight track network, so like I said, make an exception for legacy lines if O-Train is your concern. Considering funding for LRT was withdrawn from Ottawa not long ago, O-Train isn't going to be electric anytime soon anyway.

Okay, let me get this straight: Ottawa has an existing rail line with stations that could be converted to an electric light rail line without ripping up the existing track, but you would rather spend the money to keep that separate from the rest of that city's system because there is something inherently superior about standardizing the track gauge to that of a city 400 km away that is the only place in the entire world that happens to use that gauge.

Consider the supreme irony in your argument: you want to standardize track gauge across systems in a province, but not within the same city.

Why would it be likely that a new manufacturing plant would be built somewhere in Ontario to pump out the LRVs that Ontario needs? This isn't a war effort, by the way, this is the manufacturing of probably no more than 600 vehicles which can be changed relatively easily according to spec. And are you suggesting that other transit agencies in other cities would be forced to buy from this hypothetical factory? Why? So that they can all be TTC gauge?

 

[Railization]

I hold my point that a light rail line connecting Hamilton and Waterloo Region would be entirely impractical for the distance covered, and that there will never be the population density to make a light rail line practical.

I maintain that LRT doesn't require frequent stops, even though optimally it would have them. LRT is capable of going 100+km/h for 10+km if it wants. The distance between Cambridge and Dundas is about 20km. Long, yes. Is it impossible for an LRT to traverse that non-stop? Not at all. It depends on how much use such would get, of course. However, if it has good connectivity through Grand River and Dundas-Hamilton, who knows, it might have a business case in the future. Not right now though, obviously.

 

[Railization]

Okay, let me get this straight: Ottawa has an existing rail line with stations that could be converted to an electric light rail line without ripping up the existing track, but you would rather spend the money to keep that separate from the rest of that city's system because there is something inherently superior about standardizing the track gauge to that of a city 400 km away that is the only place in the entire world that happens to use that gauge.

How many times do I have to say that legacy lines can be an exception for the rare case of a freight line being aquired for LRT, generally a rare occurence that should not be relevant to a standard for something that otherwise requires new construction? You're not seeing the big picture at all, you're focusing far too much on one tiny little rare exception.

Consider the supreme irony in your argument: you want to standardize track gauge across systems in a province, but not within the same city.

If it's across the province, it would include all cities. Like I keep saying though, legacy freight lines can be exempt, why is this so hard to understand? By default, that would have to include any extensions of the existing line.

Why would it be likely that a new manufacturing plant would be built somewhere in Ontario to pump out the LRVs that Ontario needs? This isn't a war effort, by the way, this is the manufacturing of probably no more than 600 vehicles which can be changed relatively easily according to spec. And are you suggesting that other transit agencies in other cities would be forced to buy from this hypothetical factory? Why? So that they can all be TTC gauge?

It would be more than 600. TTC alone would be ordering ~600 or more since their as-of-yet unaccounted for network expansions (like the Portlands) for which cars have not yet been ordered, as well as the possibility that they haven't ordered enough to begin with to replace the existing fleet.

There's also expected to be a second round of Transit City after the initial project is complete. There'll be plenty of orders to keep this puppy pushing out LRVs.

The magnitude of 600 vehicles is an enormous order. And there'll be enough orders as LRT spreads to other parts of the province to keep that plant going. There's a high probability that the same plant would be providing all of the province's LRT systems with LRVs, including Ottawa if it switches to electric, for which changing the gauge wouldn't be an issue. There'd be pressure for the plant to provide for any system in the province, politically (kinda like the sole-sourcing deal Bombardier got, which was a political call). I don't see how war effort references enter into it, this is just the fact of there being an extremely powerful business case, as the order is of an historic magnitude.

Are you forgetting that there's a Canadian Content requirement and that the Thunder Bay plant is a bit busy with the TRs, of which another order for 126 cars is being placed this year?

 

[dunkalunk]

I maintain that LRT doesn't require frequent stops, even though optimally it would have them. LRT is capable of going 100+km/h for 10+km if it wants. The distance between Cambridge and Dundas is about 20km. Long, yes. Is it impossible for an LRT to traverse that non-stop? Not at all. It depends on how much use such would get, of course. However, if it has good connectivity through Grand River and Dundas-Hamilton, who knows, it might have a business case in the future. Not right now though, obviously.

Any connection between Hamilton and Cambridge needs to be heavy rail and standard gauge. It would be foolish to exclude freight and intercity rail vehicles from using this corridor. Light rail vehicles could theoretically still use the corridor if they are the same gauge, but why would they?

Would you want to spend an hour plus sitting in a stainless steel LRT seat, or 30 minutes in a padded coach seat? (assuming downtown to downtown service Kitchener to Hamilton).

Nothing is impossible, but LRT between Cambridge and Hamilton is unfeasible after the nostalgia factor wears off. Heavy rail is better suited to the job.

There is no reason to restrict compatibility between existing infrastucture and future infrastructure if it avoidable. Hipster Duck put this nicely is his(?) explanation of the Ottawa scenario. The same logic can be applied to Kitchener and for the most part Hamilton.

[addition] At least a fifth of the proposed LRT route through Waterloo region uses existing rail right of ways, although not necessarily on existing rail. When I went to the public information centres i was told that the corridors would either be entirely replaced or the new infrastructure would be built adjacent to it. Follow this link for the final route alternatives for Waterloo Region, the final proposed route should be coming in May.

 

[Automation Gallery]

It would be more than 600. TTC alone would be ordering ~600 or more since their as-of-yet unaccounted for network expansions (like the Portlands) for which cars have not yet been ordered, as well as the possibility that they haven't ordered enough to begin with to replace the existing fleet.

There's also expected to be a second round of Transit City after the initial project is complete. There'll be plenty of orders to keep this puppy pushing out LRVs.

The magnitude of 600 vehicles is an enormous order. And there'll be enough orders as LRT spreads to other parts of the province to keep that plant going. There's a high probability that the same plant would be providing all of the province's LRT systems with LRVs, including Ottawa if it switches to electric, for which changing the gauge wouldn't be an issue. There'd be pressure for the plant to provide for any system in the province, politically (kinda like the sole-sourcing deal Bombardier got, which was a political call). I don't see how war effort references enter into it, this is just the fact of there being an extremely powerful business case, as the order is of an historic magnitude.

Are you forgetting that there's a Canadian Content requirement and that the Thunder Bay plant is a bit busy with the TRs, of which another order for 126 cars is being placed this year?

Thats why you cant believe any of those completion dates for these proposed new lines. It would probably be safe to add 3 years to those dates.

 

[Hipster Duck]

How many times do I have to say that legacy lines can be an exception for the rare case of a freight line being aquired for LRT, generally a rare occurence that should not be relevant to a standard for something that otherwise requires new construction?

This is starting to get entertaining. Okay, so if I can sum this up: you want a standard track gauge based on a 120 year-old idiosyncracy in one city to apply across this entire province, with the exception of "legacy" freight lines upgraded to rapid transit, which can remain standard gauge.

You're not seeing the big picture at all, you're focusing far too much on one tiny little rare exception.

So, I want a gauge that is not only compatible with every system on the continent, but also configured to the present rail line in service in that city and I don't see the big picture?

By default, that would have to include any extensions of the existing line.

Okay, pop quiz: it's the future and the Ottawa Transitway has been converted to LRT with TTC gauge. Do people traveling to the airport from the O train line get off at Greenboro for a one station ride on the TTC gauge LRT? Or if there's a blocked train somewhere, do passengers have to get off and take an O train to complete their journey rather than simply reroute the train over standard gauge tracks? If there's a shortage of vehicles on one line but a surplus on another do they then get passengers on the overloaded line to take the bus? Are there two maintenance shops: one for TTC gauge and the other for standard gauge LRTs? Again, please explain why TTC gauge is the more practical choice for Ottawa.

It would be more than 600. TTC alone would be ordering ~600 or more since their as-of-yet unaccounted for network expansions (like the Portlands) for which cars have not yet been ordered, as well as the possibility that they haven't ordered enough to begin with to replace the existing fleet...The magnitude of 600 vehicles is an enormous order. And there'll be enough orders as LRT spreads to other parts of the province to keep that plant going. There's a high probability that the same plant would be providing all of the province's LRT systems with LRVs.... There'd be pressure for the plant to provide for any system in the province, politically (kinda like the sole-sourcing deal Bombardier got, which was a political call). I don't see how war effort references enter into it, this is just the fact of there being an extremely powerful business case, as the order is of an historic magnitude.

How many years does that take? We'll be lucky if we get TC phase I built by 2020. Assuming that the city still wants to build more TC (god knows why), and with all of these other Ontario systems that are barely a twinkle in the Environmental Assessor's eye coming on board, we might look at a 20 year time span to build 600+ light rail vehicles. We're not building Spitfires that need to dogfight above the British isles in ten hours, mate.

Besides, you are under the impression that the province will bid on one massive order of identical light rail vehicles for each city over a twenty year time frame (I'd hate to be the city that ends up getting 20 year old rail technology, but I digress...). What, apart from Toronto getting locked into a contract with Thunder Bay, has set a precedent for you to believe this? It's not like buses are ordered this way. Why, we even have a politically-aligned bus manufacturer right here in our province, but that hasn't prevented OC transpo and GRT from buying New Flyers.

including Ottawa if it switches to electric, for which changing the gauge wouldn't be an issue

I rest my case.

 

[Automation Gallery]

Plain and smple,why create a headache and not go with the most common gauge that is already used by other LRT systems in the world and avoid in the future having an expensive obselete system. ......Beta vs VHS, HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray etc. etc.

 

[MisterF]

Plain and smple,why create a headache and not go with the most common gauge that is already used by other LRT systems in the world and avoid in the future having an expensive obselete system. ......Beta vs VHS, HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray etc. etc.

Because going with the TTC gauge in the GTA wouldn't be any more expensive and matches the existing light rail system. Rail gauges don't go obsolete like HD-DVD. Why create a headache and go with two different gauges for light rail in a single city and have a system that's incompatible with itself?

I didn't vote for any of the options because the TTC gauge makes no sense Ontario wide but it's the only sensible option in the GTA.

 

[Railization]

This is starting to get entertaining. Okay, so if I can sum this up: you want a standard track gauge based on a 120 year-old idiosyncracy in one city to apply across this entire province, with the exception of "legacy" freight lines upgraded to rapid transit, which can remain standard gauge.

I want a standard based on the only still existing electric street railway in the province.

If you have a legacy freight line converted to non-freight use, great! If you want to extend it, great! I've made these exceptions clear, repeatedly. You just seem to ignore it.

So, I want a gauge that is not only compatible with every system on the continent, but also configured to the present rail line in service in that city and I don't see the big picture?

You seem to think cities 1000s of km away and/or in a different country matter more than the existing network within the same province. O-Train isn't an electric street railway, which is what LRT conventionally is, so it is an exception.

Okay, pop quiz: it's the future and the Ottawa Transitway has been converted to LRT with TTC gauge. Do people traveling to the airport from the O train line get off at Greenboro for a one station ride on the TTC gauge LRT? Or if there's a blocked train somewhere, do passengers have to get off and take an O train to complete their journey rather than simply reroute the train over standard gauge tracks? If there's a shortage of vehicles on one line but a surplus on another do they then get passengers on the overloaded line to take the bus? Are there two maintenance shops: one for TTC gauge and the other for standard gauge LRTs? Again, please explain why TTC gauge is the more practical choice for Ottawa.

If Ottawa expands its track network, why don't they just treat it as an extension of the O-Train line? That's the question you should be asking, because I already provided this exception, but you don't get it. Your pop quiz is non-sensical. If there's a shortage of vehicles on the Bloor line, do they shift vehicles over from the University line? No, they don't, even though the tracks exist for that to be possible. The shops issue is also moot, as stepped rails, like what existed in Toronto way back when, could be used, under a scenario where they have a line that was built outside of the O-Train network (which I don't think they'd do). The legacy extension exception leaves the door open to avoiding multiple gauges if they so see fit. That was the whole point, it wouldn't make sense to have the exception otherwise.

How many years does that take? We'll be lucky if we get TC phase I built by 2020. Assuming that the city still wants to build more TC (god knows why), and with all of these other Ontario systems that are barely a twinkle in the Environmental Assessor's eye coming on board, we might look at a 20 year time span to build 600+ light rail vehicles. We're not building Spitfires that need to dogfight above the British isles in ten hours, mate.

You're forgetting that we need 204 cars yesterday. Even if that wasn't the case though, the load is still large enough to require a new plant. It would take Thunder Bay a decade to pump out the 300 and change TC order alone, nevermind replacing the existing fleet. To argue that a new plant isn't needed is crazy. Hamilton getting LRT is pretty much fait accompli, the political support for it there is solid. It isn't just a twintle in some EA's eye, it's happening.

Besides, you are under the impression that the province will bid on one massive order of identical light rail vehicles for each city over a twenty year time frame (I'd hate to be the city that ends up getting 20 year old rail technology, but I digress...). What, apart from Toronto getting locked into a contract with Thunder Bay, has set a precedent for you to believe this? It's not like buses are ordered this way. Why, we even have a politically-aligned bus manufacturer right here in our province, but that hasn't prevented OC transpo and GRT from buying New Flyers.

Heard about the group purchase order that went through Metrolinx not too long ago? It's like that. As for hating to be a city that ends up getting 20 year old rail technology, does that mean Toronto should be feeling sad for itself for getting the TRs, which are coming from the same plant as the T1s 12+ years ago?
It's called economies of scale. The way bulk ordering works, is by getting a cheaper unit price by increasing the size of the order.
Why is it so difficult for you to see the huge incentive to have a large bulk order for the region? You aren't making any sense.

I rest my case.

So, you disagree with the legacy freight line exception the whole while, and then suddenly agree with it at the end. Wow.

 

[Hipster Duck]

I want a standard based on the only still existing electric street railway in the province.

Which happens to be 400 km away and will never ever link up with Ottawa.

If you have a legacy freight line converted to non-freight use, great! If you want to extend it, great! I've made these exceptions clear, repeatedly. You just seem to ignore it.

You were the one who said that all LRT lines built in Ottawa henceforth should be TTC gauge, but that the O train should remain standard gauge and be a separate system.

You seem to think cities 1000s of km away and/or in a different country matter more than the existing network within the same province.

Like Toronto matters any more than Chengdu in a matter like this. If a meteor hits Mars instead of Pluto, does it impact us more because Mars is closer?

O-Train isn't an electric street railway, which is what LRT conventionally is, so it is an exception.

O train has the potential to be converted to electric LRT at minimal cost: the alignment is there, the stations are there, the track is there. If they were to consider building an LRT line in Ottawa again, it would be pretty obvious that this would be a segment of that system.

If Ottawa expands its track network, why don't they just treat it as an extension of the O-Train line? That's the question you should be asking, because I already provided this exception, but you don't get it.

You mean, like build standard gauge instead of some idiotic variant that a city 400 km away uses? I asked that question to you, I believe.

Your pop quiz is non-sensical. If there's a shortage of vehicles on the Bloor line, do they shift vehicles over from the University line? No, they don't even though the tracks exist for that to be possible.

But they can.

The shops issue is also moot, as stepped rails, like what existed in Toronto way back when, could be used, under a scenario where they have a line that was built outside of the O-Train network (which I don't think they'd do).

If the system was all one gauge (standard gauge), you wouldn't even need stepped rails. You would just need normal rails.

The legacy extension exception leaves the door open to avoiding multiple gauges if they so see fit. That was the whole point, it wouldn't make sense to have the exception otherwise.

What?! You want to build a TTC gauge LRT in Ottawa in addition to having the standard gauge O train. How does this avoid multiple (as in, more than one) gauge? You want non-sensical? This is non-sensical.

You're forgetting that we need 204 cars yesterday. Even if that wasn't the case though, the load is still large enough to require a new plant. It would take Thunder Bay a decade to pump out the 300 and change TC order alone, nevermind replacing the existing fleet. To argue that a new plant isn't needed is crazy.

Kawasaki's plant in Yonkers can crank out 500 heavy rail subway cars for New York City in 2 years, but Thunder Bay has to take a decade to build 300 light rail vehicles? Please.

Hamilton getting LRT is pretty much fait accompli, the political support for it there is solid. It isn't just a twintle in some EA's eye, it's happening.

It's happening? Where are the shovels?

Heard about the group purchase order that went through Metrolinx not too long ago? It's like that.

Well, obviously, Metrolinx being a single agency would want to order the same equipment. OC Transpo, HSR and GRT are not a single agency.

As for hating to be a city that ends up getting 20 year old rail technology, does that mean Toronto should be feeling sad for itself for getting the TRs, which are coming from the same plant as the T1s 12+ years ago?

That's a plant, not a vehicle.

It's called economies of scale. The way bulk ordering works, is by getting a cheaper unit price by increasing the size of the order.

What about competitive bidding? You are basically consigning all future LRV orders to one plant (by the way, which manufacturer gets to receive all of this corporate welfare?).

Why is it so difficult for you to see the huge incentive to have a large bulk order for the region? You aren't making any sense.

Okay, so I want to use a standard gauge that fits with the existing equipment in a city, want to allow different transit agencies to procure vehicles on their own terms and disagree that an order of 300 vehicles will need its own separate manufacturing plant, and I'm the one who isn't making any sense?

So, you disagree with the legacy freight line exception the whole while, and then suddenly agree with it at the end. Wow.

"I rest my case" means: "ok, I don't have to prove my point because you just did it for me by admitting that changing gauges on a LRV is not a big deal. So, if they build a LRV for Ottawa with standard gauge, it won't be a big deal, but will avoid the pitfalls of running two separate systems in one city".

Understand?

 

[kEiThZ]

Some missed out facts in the Ottawa example. They have resurrected LRT as an East-West line instead of a replacement for the O-train. It will be electric (at least that's what they promised at the last public info session). Phase 2 of the plan calls for the O-train to be replaced with electric LRT. From sidebar conversations I had with the engineers at the presentation, it's likely the gauge will be the same as the current o-train.