News   Dec 05, 2019
 232     1 
News   Dec 05, 2019
 318     0 
News   Dec 05, 2019
 525     8 

Spadina Rapid Transit Line (Speculative)

sixrings

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Aug 19, 2009
Messages
4,247
Reaction score
1,328
Personally I always thought a short U subway line was perfect for either spadina and or Bathurst. The line would go south turn east at front. And then turn north again at parliament. To me that would be a downtown relief line that is small, but go through dense neighborhoods. Being walking distance to either the University line or the Yonge line might encourage people to transfer off the bloor line, alleviating st George or yonge bloor. Obviously you still need a traditional DRL to serve the far suburbs but if we build the Ontario line we will need another line again in the future. Maybe a map would have been easier than this explanation
 

Northern Light

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
May 20, 2007
Messages
4,725
Reaction score
4,408
Location
Toronto/EY
Some great ideas here, but I don't think they're politically viable at the moment.
Based on distances, It really should be politically easy to ditch Sullivan and the Richmond/Adelaide stops.

The former leaves you with stops under 500m apart, while the entire Queen to King distance is a mere 300m.

The challenge is platform sizes on Spadina, which can already be crowded.

But I think its resolvable.

At King, the platforms are both on the north side of the intersection to allow for 4 NB lanes, including a left lane. I don't think that's necessary, Three lanes NB would suffice there.

That would allow one of the LRT stops to shift to the south side of the intersection, the one remaining on the north side could capture the leftover space of the other with a slight shift in the track location.

At Queen, the NB platform is more crowded, and there is parking in the adjacent curb, removing said parking should allow the bulk of the platform to be widened.

Changing the traffic light sequence shouldn't be an issue (so that the LRT goes before left-turns), even to drivers, though Transportation has always been an obstacle to this..............

I think there's workable stuff here.

Some of the more 'controversial' bits can be left to another time, but let's grab low hanging fruit and make this line (and St. Clair) work better.

***

@Hopkins123 please don't tell me 300M between stops is excessive at Queen/King. or even 500M from Dundas to Queen all that much of a stretch (if you're dead in the middle, max. walk of 250M)

I appreciate where some other stop removals might create large(r) gaps, but not those two.
 

Northern Light

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
May 20, 2007
Messages
4,725
Reaction score
4,408
Location
Toronto/EY
Personally I always thought a short U subway line was perfect for either spadina and or Bathurst. The line would go south turn east at front. And then turn north again at parliament. To me that would be a downtown relief line that is small, but go through dense neighborhoods. Being walking distance to either the University line or the Yonge line might encourage people to transfer off the bloor line, alleviating st George or yonge bloor. Obviously you still need a traditional DRL to serve the far suburbs but if we build the Ontario line we will need another line again in the future. Maybe a map would have been easier than this explanation
A fine fantasy idea, but definitely not in the cards, even in the next 40 years.

There's just way too long a list of projects that would come first, even once you get past even the idealized current round.

The OL/RL will go further west and north in the west end and up to Sheppard in the east before another line gets built downtown.

Moreover, if the object were to relieve Line 1, you wouldn't go for those routes, given where the OL is set to run.

The only place you would go is Bay Street but w/the proviso that said line really has nowhere to go north of Bloor without a massive jog. I suppose one could argue for sending it under Avenue Rd. as far north as St. Clair, but after that the density drops like a stone. Needless to say, not an issue we will need to serious discuss for a long time.

To supplement N-S transit within the broader downtown; look for Bathurst to see a parking ban; the exclusive ROW can run north from Fleet to Queen before returning to mixed traffic; were someone thinking, they would return material around the tracks to cobblestone to discourage drivers north of Queen w/o outlawing them.

Parliament will likewise see a parking ban; with tracks in place on most of the route, the return of streetcar service is plausible but I won't say likely; frequency can easily be doubled if not tripled before that is considered.

Eventually regular bus service will be added/returned to either Jarvis or Church.

Once all of that gets full; I suppose another subway will be contemplated; and discussed, and studied, and cancelled, and then re-proposed, then deferred, then maybe built, in the 2080s, LOL
 

W. K. Lis

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
Dec 24, 2007
Messages
15,521
Reaction score
4,417
Location
Toronto, ON, CAN, Terra, Sol, Milky Way
If by the time of the next streetcar order, they decide to lengthen (maybe double the length of) the streetcars on Spadina, they could widen the headways, to allow more time for the cross traffic to pass in front before the arrival of the next streetcar.

Maybe even get double-ended streetcars for easier short-turns, in case of emergencies.
 

mdrejhon

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Messages
3,924
Reaction score
2,562
Location
Hamilton
If by the time of the next streetcar order, they decide to lengthen (maybe double the length of) the streetcars on Spadina, they could widen the headways, to allow more time for the cross traffic to pass in front before the arrival of the next streetcar. Maybe even get double-ended streetcars for easier short-turns, in case of emergencies.
7-segment Flexities would look nice on Spadina, St. Clair and King LRTs. Or even proper couplers to create 2-coach trains (60 meters).

Raise the platforms to level boarding, just like Eglinton Crosstown LRT. No more ramps needed.

I think 504 King could also slowly become an LRT within 20-30 years too. Ontario Line intersects at King-Bathurst and at Corktown, dramatically increasing pressure on LRT-ifying King. The ridership is there, and after the 2023 King rebuild (hopefully that produces raised level-boarding platforms flush to the side of the new streetcars, like a real LRT), opens the door to gradually LRT-ifying the route incrementally. With longer trains, 150,000 passengers per day is doable on King Streetcar route if it turns fully LRT by ~2041. (Note: Calgary C-Train does 300,000 people through surface downtown intersections).
 
Last edited:

dowlingm

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
3,603
Reaction score
1,409
Can this misleading forum title be amended to make it clear this is just speculative, please? In any event, given how much complaining I see from Spadina riders, calling the 510 the “Spadina RT” would be just grist to the mill of those who call any “RT“ not a subway “just a streetcar“
 

W. K. Lis

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
Dec 24, 2007
Messages
15,521
Reaction score
4,417
Location
Toronto, ON, CAN, Terra, Sol, Milky Way
Can this misleading forum title be amended to make it clear this is just speculative, please? In any event, given how much complaining I see from Spadina riders, calling the 510 the “Spadina RT” would be just grist to the mill of those who call any “RT“ not a subway “just a streetcar“
True, it is speculative. That is because we have politicians, bureaucrats, and NIMBYs who will prevent any or all upgrades to improve the 510 SPADINA.

We can start by stopping the practice of having the streetcar operator having to "stop" at each track switch, by actually replacing or improving those switches. IF we can get the proper funding to actually to do so, and not cut that item at budget time each year for the past several decades.
 

Johnny Au

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
5,361
Reaction score
884
Location
Near the North York, York, & Old Toronto tripoint
Can this misleading forum title be amended to make it clear this is just speculative, please? In any event, given how much complaining I see from Spadina riders, calling the 510 the “Spadina RT” would be just grist to the mill of those who call any “RT“ not a subway “just a streetcar“
Not just that, but the OP mentions upgrading the "512 St. Clair" streetcar rather than "510 Spadina."
 

W. K. Lis

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
Dec 24, 2007
Messages
15,521
Reaction score
4,417
Location
Toronto, ON, CAN, Terra, Sol, Milky Way
By upgrading the 510 SPADINA (and 512 ST. CLAIR), as mentioned at the start, we could get a "rapid transit" cheaply. IF we had a real transit czar who would push the naysayers aside and actually do something to improve the 510 and 512.
 

Top