Spadina Rapid Transit Line (Speculative)

[sixrings]

Personally I always thought a short U subway line was perfect for either spadina and or Bathurst. The line would go south turn east at front. And then turn north again at parliament. To me that would be a downtown relief line that is small, but go through dense neighborhoods. Being walking distance to either the University line or the Yonge line might encourage people to transfer off the bloor line, alleviating st George or yonge bloor. Obviously you still need a traditional DRL to serve the far suburbs but if we build the Ontario line we will need another line again in the future. Maybe a map would have been easier than this explanation

 

[Northern Light]

Some great ideas here, but I don't think they're politically viable at the moment.

Based on distances, It really should be politically easy to ditch Sullivan and the Richmond/Adelaide stops.

The former leaves you with stops under 500m apart, while the entire Queen to King distance is a mere 300m.

The challenge is platform sizes on Spadina, which can already be crowded.

But I think its resolvable.

At King, the platforms are both on the north side of the intersection to allow for 4 NB lanes, including a left lane. I don't think that's necessary, Three lanes NB would suffice there.

That would allow one of the LRT stops to shift to the south side of the intersection, the one remaining on the north side could capture the leftover space of the other with a slight shift in the track location.

At Queen, the NB platform is more crowded, and there is parking in the adjacent curb, removing said parking should allow the bulk of the platform to be widened.

Changing the traffic light sequence shouldn't be an issue (so that the LRT goes before left-turns), even to drivers, though Transportation has always been an obstacle to this..............

I think there's workable stuff here.

Some of the more 'controversial' bits can be left to another time, but let's grab low hanging fruit and make this line (and St. Clair) work better.

***

@Hopkins123 please don't tell me 300M between stops is excessive at Queen/King. or even 500M from Dundas to Queen all that much of a stretch (if you're dead in the middle, max. walk of 250M)

I appreciate where some other stop removals might create large(r) gaps, but not those two.

 

[Northern Light]

Personally I always thought a short U subway line was perfect for either spadina and or Bathurst. The line would go south turn east at front. And then turn north again at parliament. To me that would be a downtown relief line that is small, but go through dense neighborhoods. Being walking distance to either the University line or the Yonge line might encourage people to transfer off the bloor line, alleviating st George or yonge bloor. Obviously you still need a traditional DRL to serve the far suburbs but if we build the Ontario line we will need another line again in the future. Maybe a map would have been easier than this explanation

A fine fantasy idea, but definitely not in the cards, even in the next 40 years.

There's just way too long a list of projects that would come first, even once you get past even the idealized current round.

The OL/RL will go further west and north in the west end and up to Sheppard in the east before another line gets built downtown.

Moreover, if the object were to relieve Line 1, you wouldn't go for those routes, given where the OL is set to run.

The only place you would go is Bay Street but w/the proviso that said line really has nowhere to go north of Bloor without a massive jog. I suppose one could argue for sending it under Avenue Rd. as far north as St. Clair, but after that the density drops like a stone. Needless to say, not an issue we will need to serious discuss for a long time.

To supplement N-S transit within the broader downtown; look for Bathurst to see a parking ban; the exclusive ROW can run north from Fleet to Queen before returning to mixed traffic; were someone thinking, they would return material around the tracks to cobblestone to discourage drivers north of Queen w/o outlawing them.

Parliament will likewise see a parking ban; with tracks in place on most of the route, the return of streetcar service is plausible but I won't say likely; frequency can easily be doubled if not tripled before that is considered.

Eventually regular bus service will be added/returned to either Jarvis or Church.

Once all of that gets full; I suppose another subway will be contemplated; and discussed, and studied, and cancelled, and then re-proposed, then deferred, then maybe built, in the 2080s, LOL

 

[W. K. Lis]

Some great ideas here, but I don't think they're politically viable at the moment.

Especially with the auto-dependant suburban councillors, politicians, and bureaucrats in charge of public transit.

 

[W. K. Lis]

If by the time of the next streetcar order, they decide to lengthen (maybe double the length of) the streetcars on Spadina, they could widen the headways, to allow more time for the cross traffic to pass in front before the arrival of the next streetcar.

Maybe even get double-ended streetcars for easier short-turns, in case of emergencies.

 

[mdrejhon]

If by the time of the next streetcar order, they decide to lengthen (maybe double the length of) the streetcars on Spadina, they could widen the headways, to allow more time for the cross traffic to pass in front before the arrival of the next streetcar. Maybe even get double-ended streetcars for easier short-turns, in case of emergencies.

7-segment Flexities would look nice on Spadina, St. Clair and King LRTs. Or even proper couplers to create 2-coach trains (60 meters).

Raise the platforms to level boarding, just like Eglinton Crosstown LRT. No more ramps needed.

I think 504 King could also slowly become an LRT within 20-30 years too. Ontario Line intersects at King-Bathurst and at Corktown, dramatically increasing pressure on LRT-ifying King. The ridership is there, and after the 2023 King rebuild (hopefully that produces raised level-boarding platforms flush to the side of the new streetcars, like a real LRT), opens the door to gradually LRT-ifying the route incrementally. With longer trains, 150,000 passengers per day is doable on King Streetcar route if it turns fully LRT by ~2041. (Note: Calgary C-Train does 300,000 people through surface downtown intersections).

 

[dowlingm]

Can this misleading forum title be amended to make it clear this is just speculative, please? In any event, given how much complaining I see from Spadina riders, calling the 510 the “Spadina RT” would be just grist to the mill of those who call any “RT“ not a subway “just a streetcar“

 

[W. K. Lis]

Can this misleading forum title be amended to make it clear this is just speculative, please? In any event, given how much complaining I see from Spadina riders, calling the 510 the “Spadina RT” would be just grist to the mill of those who call any “RT“ not a subway “just a streetcar“

True, it is speculative. That is because we have politicians, bureaucrats, and NIMBYs who will prevent any or all upgrades to improve the 510 SPADINA.

We can start by stopping the practice of having the streetcar operator having to "stop" at each track switch, by actually replacing or improving those switches. IF we can get the proper funding to actually to do so, and not cut that item at budget time each year for the past several decades.

 

[Johnny Au]

Can this misleading forum title be amended to make it clear this is just speculative, please? In any event, given how much complaining I see from Spadina riders, calling the 510 the “Spadina RT” would be just grist to the mill of those who call any “RT“ not a subway “just a streetcar“

Not just that, but the OP mentions upgrading the "512 St. Clair" streetcar rather than "510 Spadina."

 

[W. K. Lis]

By upgrading the 510 SPADINA (and 512 ST. CLAIR), as mentioned at the start, we could get a "rapid transit" cheaply. IF we had a real transit czar who would push the naysayers aside and actually do something to improve the 510 and 512.

 

[ViveleCanada]

Not sure if this thread specifically wants to stay on the LRT topic, but I found something interesting from "Rapid Transit In Toronto" by Edward J. Levy. In the section about the former interlining service, there is a mention of BA Consulting Group Ltd. doing a study in 1989 entitled "The Spadina Downtown Subway" which would have been a subway line extending from: Line 1's Spadina Station, down south along Spadina Avenue, twisting east on Front Street and connecting up with today's Union station. The proposal was to replace the Spadina LRT with this subway line. The subway service would have changed for the Yonge - University - Spadina line to run along the new Spadina subway line instead of using the University portion (this alternate universe would render the "University" part of the name useless). The old University section would possibly see a return of interlining service now terminating at Union instead of Finch (not directly mentioned as part of the report, but heavily implied). This was probably more of a thought of experiment since the study came out as the TTC was starting construction on the Spadina LRT. Monsieur Levy, however, recalls there was heavy media coverage of this report when it was published, I have yet to find evidence of this though. The original report is still sitting with the City of Toronto Archives.

 

[M II A II R II K]

How about an underground Transit City line where the interchange station is located in that long corridor to connect with both lines 1 and 2 at either ends. And interchange with the new Rail Deck Park station as well

 

[Rainforest]

How about an underground Transit City line where the interchange station is located in that long corridor to connect with both lines 1 and 2 at either ends. And interchange with the new Rail Deck Park station as well

I expect a fully underground streetcar line in this corridor to cost about as much as a subway line. If we do decide to build a rail tunnel under Spadina south of Bloor (not sure this is the best possible route, but it qualifies as one of the options to consider), then we should go for the high capacity subway technology to accommodate the future demand.

 

[MrGoose]

Single Bore subway line, also break the Yonge Line at Spadina and run the western half down Spadina to Union and up to bloor along Sherbourne.

If we need more capacity to downtown, extend the line from Sherbourne up Bayview.

 

[mdrejhon]

If we implement transit priority on Spadina, this can be an opportunity to lengthen the vehicles to 2-LRV or 3-LRV consists.

Modify the stops to be all-door level boarding without a ramp.

Or at least 45-meter 7-segment Flexities. Make them double-ended so the long trains don't need to use streetcar loops.

The extra capacity can allow a slight frequency adjustment that allows increase of speeds and better transit priority timing adjustments.