Spadina Rapid Transit Line (Speculative)

[micheal_can]

I suspect you already had a good idea of the answer. Any follow-up comments?

I still don't see interlining as a good solution. We have a problem we need to solve first - the requirement of operators. All lines have operators, which means they cannot react nearly as fast as ATC can. Get rid of the operators, and maybe it might work.

 

[BurlOak]

I still don't see interlining as a good solution. We have a problem we need to solve first - the requirement of operators. All lines have operators, which means they cannot react nearly as fast as ATC can. Get rid of the operators, and maybe it might work.

Well of course. Everyone agrees that operators are not needed, and it could be fixed tomorrow - or anytime between now and when the needed construction is completed to allow for interlining. Ford already spread that idea with the "fully automatic" Ontario Line.
Real problems include cost of building this new leg, whether entire Yonge and Bloor lines will be ATC by the time it's built.
The question remains whether it will provide more relief to Y-B than the planned upgrades to the Bloor line platforms and the added stairs.

 

[micheal_can]

Well of course. Everyone agrees that operators are not needed, and it could be fixed tomorrow - or anytime between now and when the needed construction is completed to allow for interlining. Ford already spread that idea with the "fully automatic" Ontario Line.
Real problems include cost of building this new leg, whether entire Yonge and Bloor lines will be ATC by the time it's built.
The question remains whether it will provide more relief to Y-B than the planned upgrades to the Bloor line platforms and the added stairs.

If you mean whether Ontario Line will provide more relief? I'd think it will be a temporary relief. What is needed is fare intergration with GO and the local transit agencies. Also, at least 15 minute each way on all lines. And doubling the amount of GO stations within the city of Toronto. Then, maybe we might see Yonge - Bloor station be reduced.

A novel idea - fare zones. Each Regional Municipality is a fare zone. Each additional RM you travel through is one more fare zone. Your ticket is good for all mode of travel. That may have people taking the GO trains more.

 

[gweed123]

I think interlining would work, but a few wayfinding issues would need to be sorted out first. EB at Bay and WB at St. George would need info screens to tell passengers on which level the next train will be arriving.

Overall, I think interlining would improve crowding at Bloor-Yonge better than widening the platforms would. If someone getting on at Broadview or Woodbine can get on a downtown-bound train, I think most would ride the extra couple stops to avoid having to transfer.

It may be a new challenge from a signalling perspective, but with ATC I think it can be done. If NYC can manage the massive amounts of train weaving using signalling systems that are older than what the TTC is/was using, I think it's feasible.

As for the map on the previous page, I had proposed something very similar a while back, only that it would be the Relief Line (back when it was still a TTC Subway) that would continue west to Spadina and then veer north under Spadina, connecting to the Spadina Subway at Bloor. This would de-couple the Spadina Line from the Yonge-University Line, allowing it and the Bloor-Danforth Line to operate in the original interlined configuration.

There would be an additional route that would run from Davisville (where there's a 3rd track and platform) to St Clair West along the current YUS alignment to serve people on the Spadina Line would are specifically bound for somewhere on the YUS downtown loop that isn't easily accessible from Queen.

Under the plan I describe above, the 501 Queen would run along Queen to Spadina, have a transfer platform provided to the Relief Line, then veer south on Spadina to King. It would run along King through downtown, re-joining Queen at the Don River, and resuming the current 501 alignment. This would allow the 501 to continue through operations, while still providing good connections to Relief Line stations for those wishing to transfer. Ideally, King would be made into a Transit Mall (or at least have the lane configuration improved to provide for even more priority), so the trip across downtown would still be relatively quick.

 

[BurlOak]

If you mean whether Ontario Line will provide more relief? I'd think it will be a temporary relief. What is needed is fare intergration with GO and the local transit agencies. Also, at least 15 minute each way on all lines. And doubling the amount of GO stations within the city of Toronto. Then, maybe we might see Yonge - Bloor station be reduced.

A novel idea - fare zones. Each Regional Municipality is a fare zone. Each additional RM you travel through is one more fare zone. Your ticket is good for all mode of travel. That may have people taking the GO trains more.

Real problems include cost of building this new leg, whether entire Yonge and Bloor lines will be ATC by the time it's built.
The question remains whether it will provide more relief to Y-B than the planned upgrades to the Bloor line platforms and the added stairs.

"It" refers to the previous sentence - building the new leg for Spadina.
I think your just pulling my chain.

 

[BurlOak]

I think interlining would work, but a few wayfinding issues would need to be sorted out first. EB at Bay and WB at St. George would need info screens to tell passengers on which level the next train will be arriving.

Agree, but this hardly needs mentioning compare to a Billion $ price tag. Thankfully big screen TV's are on sale this week.

Overall, I think interlining would improve crowding at Bloor-Yonge better than widening the platforms would. If someone getting on at Broadview or Woodbine can get on a downtown-bound train, I think most would ride the extra couple stops to avoid having to transfer.

Even if they have to wait 1 train - skipping the train that is continuing West to Kipling - most would prefer waiting 2 minutes for the downtown bound train.

It may be a new challenge from a signalling perspective, but with ATC I think it can be done. If NYC can manage the massive amounts of train weaving using signalling systems that are older than what the TTC is/was using, I think it's feasible.

I would think so too.

As for the map on the previous page, I had proposed something very similar a while back, only that it would be the Relief Line (back when it was still a TTC Subway) that would continue west to Spadina and then veer north under Spadina, connecting to the Spadina Subway at Bloor. This would de-couple the Spadina Line from the Yonge-University Line, allowing it and the Bloor-Danforth Line to operate in the original interlined configuration.

I recall your routing. I am not sure if interlining was part of it though or was it just to decouple (to prevent delays on one segment from affecting the other). Spending a Billion $$$ to decouple Spadina would be a difficult sell, especially considering that those coming down from the north (Eglinton West, Yorkdale, York U) would have worse access to downtown. If the money was spent to allow all people on Yonge or Bloor-Danforth direct access to downtown - it would be a winner.

There would be an additional route that would run from Davisville (where there's a 3rd track and platform) to St Clair West along the current YUS alignment to serve people on the Spadina Line would are specifically bound for somewhere on the YUS downtown loop that isn't easily accessible from Queen.

With this, wouldn't it preclude the interlining?
Your above reasoning is why I was hoping to go south somewhere between the "U" (Elizabeth/York), instead of down Spadina. This would serve Spadina riders arguably better than they have now.

Under the plan I describe above, the 501 Queen would run along Queen to Spadina, have a transfer platform provided to the Relief Line, then veer south on Spadina to King. It would run along King through downtown, re-joining Queen at the Don River, and resuming the current 501 alignment. This would allow the 501 to continue through operations, while still providing good connections to Relief Line stations for those wishing to transfer. Ideally, King would be made into a Transit Mall (or at least have the lane configuration improved to provide for even more priority), so the trip across downtown would still be relatively quick.

During construction, re-routing the Queen streetcar may be required - but once complete, why not just keep it as-is, mixed in traffic, but with lower ridership due to the subway underneath.
To avoid disruption during construction, perhaps an alignment along Richmond would be preferable - it's only 100m from Queen, would cause less disruption during construction, including less disruption to the Queen streetcar.

 

[micheal_can]

"It" refers to the previous sentence - building the new leg for Spadina.
I think your just pulling my chain.

I don't think a new leg will do much, if anything. A city of over 2 million people with 2 RT routes and only one going into downtown. You need more routes into downtown. Interlining won't fix this. Neither will a new branch of an already congested line.

 

[BurlOak]

I don't think a new leg will do much, if anything. A city of over 2 million people with 2 RT routes and only one going into downtown. You need more routes into downtown. Interlining won't fix this. Neither will a new branch of an already congested line.

i give up.

 

[micheal_can]

i give up.

Why? Why not help me see how I am wrong?

Using the idea of adding more lanes to the 401 to ease congestion, you would think that with 18 thru lanes, there would be no congestion.

So, adding a branch to the already busy Yonge line will not ease congestion. Interlining Yonge will not ease congestion. New lines that go downtown will.

 

[BurlOak]

This is about decoupling Spadina vs. Station improvements at Yonge-Bloor.
Decoupling Spadina for the sake of decoupling does not solve anything. With interlining, essentially the Bloor-Danforth subway now would go downtown, so technically I have added 2 new lines through downtown.

Other transit lines into the downtown are also definitely warranted, and I have a couple added to my fantasy map - but their discussion likely belongs on another thread. Improved GO is also needed, but again, it's a different thread.

Even this is marginally associated with this forum, but because a part of it is on Spadina, and since it's a variant of a decoupled Spadina subway running down Spadina - I figure it is close enough. I could also consider it in the Yonge-Bloor forum, since the only chance this has is being an alternative solution to Y-B station improvements.

 

[W. K. Lis]

If we were able to eliminate some stops, length the cars (by doubling them up, or new longer cars), and lengthening the headway to get real transit priority, the Spadina LRT could be a rapid transit line. People going to and from the Skydome (I mean Rogers Centre) and the Metro Toronto Convention Centre (why is "Metro" still part of its name?) would have a alternative to using Line 1 to go north to Line 2.

 

[micheal_can]

This is about decoupling Spadina vs. Station improvements at Yonge-Bloor.
Decoupling Spadina for the sake of decoupling does not solve anything. With interlining, essentially the Bloor-Danforth subway now would go downtown, so technically I have added 2 new lines through downtown.

Other transit lines into the downtown are also definitely warranted, and I have a couple added to my fantasy map - but their discussion likely belongs on another thread. Improved GO is also needed, but again, it's a different thread.

Even this is marginally associated with this forum, but because a part of it is on Spadina, and since it's a variant of a decoupled Spadina subway running down Spadina - I figure it is close enough. I could also consider it in the Yonge-Bloor forum, since the only chance this has is being an alternative solution to Y-B station improvements.

View attachment 223329

No, with interlining, you are putting more trains down the same line that is already congested.

None of the U south of Bloor could be set up to handle all of the traffic currently coming down Yonge and half the Bloor trains too. That is what you are talking about.

List of North American rapid transit systems - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Toronto has DOUBLE ridership that the EL has. So, comparing the 2 is rather pointless. Compare it to Montreal or NYC. Suggesting we do something that has half the ridership and saying it will work here is being naive.

Toronto needs more separate lines downtown..So, an idea I would respect is adding a U along Spadina and Bay and having Bloor follow that. Now Bloor riders have a 1 seat ride downtown with no need to transfer at Yonge - Bloor.

 

[BurlOak]

No, with interlining, you are putting more trains down the same line that is already congested.

None of the U south of Bloor could be set up to handle all of the traffic currently coming down Yonge and half the Bloor trains too. That is what you are talking about.

Let's look at the trains coming down Yonge - it would be the exact same as what we have today. But instead of going around the U and heading off to Yorkdale, they would turn onto the Bloor line. Alternate trains would go east (green line) and west (blue line).

Say the green line trains come every 2 minutes, stagered with the blue line trains that come every 2 minutes. This means that Bloor-Danforth will only have trains every 4 minutes. That's where the straight B-D train (red line) comes in - it fills in the space to have trains every 2 minutes on the B-D line as well.

• So if you are at Pape, a green line train will come to take you downtown, followed 2 minutes later by a red line train that takes you West to Kipling. If you are heading downtown, you catch the green train (you may have to skip the first red train you see, but waiting the 2 minutes to avoid a transfer is a good deal). Although if you want to access Wellesley or College, you make want to take any train (red or green) and make the transfer at Y-B (just as today) and switch to either a green or blue train.
• If you are at Dufferin, a blue line train will come to take you downtown, followed 2 minutes later by a red line train that takes you East to Kennedy. If you are heading downtown, you catch the blue train (you may have to skip the first red train you see, but waiting the 2 minutes to avoid a transfer is a good deal). Although if you want to access Wellesley or College, you do just as well catching a red train, to make the transfer at Y-B and switch to either a green or blue train.
• If you are at Eglinton, a blue line train will come to take you downtown (and eventually heads off to Kipling*), followed 2 minutes later with a green line train that takes you downtown (and eventually heads off to Kennedy*). If you are heading either West* or East* you will most likely make the transfer at Y-B (just as today) instead of riding all the way down through the U.

Now, since more people can make it downtown without a transfer, it reduced the number of transfers at Y-B. This reduces the loading and unload time at Y-B - with this long time affecting the frequency of trains that you can be shoved southbound (at am peak) down toward Wellesley. With current loads, this single station affects the timing on the entire YUS line. By reducing this station dwell time, we can actually send MORE trains down the Yonge line than we currently have. This wouldn't be a huge amount, but perhaps 5% to 10% more trains could pass through in a typical hour. I assumed the 2 minute frequency above, which is perhaps aggressive for today, but not with full ATC and not with an improved terminal station when Yonge subway is extended to Richmond Hill. So the train frequency might improve with this interline from 120 seconds to 110 seconds - which would translate into an extra 2 or 3,000 passengers per direction per hour. Plus the more convenient trip downtown for those coming across the B-D Line.

Toronto needs more separate lines downtown..So, an idea I would respect is adding a U along Spadina and Bay and having Bloor follow that. Now Bloor riders have a 1 seat ride downtown with no need to transfer at Yonge - Bloor.

I can't picture this suggestion.

 

[tayser]

Sydney, Melbourne and Chicago all operate much more complicated loop systems with their trains/metros so I'm sure interlining is still operationally feasible. If anything, they can hire consultants from those cities to help them reintroduce interlining.

If said consultants weren't taking the piss, they'd be telling Toronto authorities that Melbourne & Sydney are doing the darndest to untangle interlining and loop structures!

Melbourne's City loop worked for a system that just focused on peak commuting to the centre of the city - that's what our train network does very well (despite certain lines are getting congested) but we're 2 million people more than what the system is good for (a city of 3 mil) - new lines/tunnels are getting added in both cities that are adding capacity and are explicitly not going to have any type of merge of services in central areas.

The Metro Tunnel in Melbourne will have branches - but the merging will be done way out in the suburbs and there will be a core line approx 40km long which will act as a high frequency and high capacity metro/subway-like line. (The crush load in the new trains will be upwards of 1800 for the initial 7-car configuration, and each station will be able to cater for 10-car trains eventually).

Likewise, the new lines in Melbourne & Sydney will effectively be expanding the central areas by putting new stations in areas adjacent to CBDs where there are none now.

 

[micheal_can]

Let's look at the trains coming down Yonge - it would be the exact same as what we have today. But instead of going around the U and heading off to Yorkdale, they would turn onto the Bloor line. Alternate trains would go east (green line) and west (blue line).

Say the green line trains come every 2 minutes, stagered with the blue line trains that come every 2 minutes. This means that Bloor-Danforth will only have trains every 4 minutes. That's where the straight B-D train (red line) comes in - it fills in the space to have trains every 2 minutes on the B-D line as well.

• So if you are at Pape, a green line train will come to take you downtown, followed 2 minutes later by a red line train that takes you West to Kipling. If you are heading downtown, you catch the green train (you may have to skip the first red train you see, but waiting the 2 minutes to avoid a transfer is a good deal). Although if you want to access Wellesley or College, you make want to take any train (red or green) and make the transfer at Y-B (just as today) and switch to either a green or blue train.
• If you are at Dufferin, a blue line train will come to take you downtown, followed 2 minutes later by a red line train that takes you East to Kennedy. If you are heading downtown, you catch the blue train (you may have to skip the first red train you see, but waiting the 2 minutes to avoid a transfer is a good deal). Although if you want to access Wellesley or College, you do just as well catching a red train, to make the transfer at Y-B and switch to either a green or blue train.
• If you are at Eglinton, a blue line train will come to take you downtown (and eventually heads off to Kipling*), followed 2 minutes later with a green line train that takes you downtown (and eventually heads off to Kennedy*). If you are heading either West* or East* you will most likely make the transfer at Y-B (just as today) instead of riding all the way down through the U.

Now, since more people can make it downtown without a transfer, it reduced the number of transfers at Y-B. This reduces the loading and unload time at Y-B - with this long time affecting the frequency of trains that you can be shoved southbound (at am peak) down toward Wellesley. With current loads, this single station affects the timing on the entire YUS line. By reducing this station dwell time, we can actually send MORE trains down the Yonge line than we currently have. This wouldn't be a huge amount, but perhaps 5% to 10% more trains could pass through in a typical hour. I assumed the 2 minute frequency above, which is perhaps aggressive for today, but not with full ATC and not with an improved terminal station when Yonge subway is extended to Richmond Hill. So the train frequency might improve with this interline from 120 seconds to 110 seconds - which would translate into an extra 2 or 3,000 passengers per direction per hour. Plus the more convenient trip downtown for those coming across the B-D Line.

View attachment 223357


I can't picture this suggestion.

Bloor line change - Google My Maps

Bloor line change

drive.google.com

As you see, it adds stations without loosing stations.