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Smitherman's Transit plan

Smitherman's campaign website says: •George supports constructing the Waterfront LRT by 2015 which will enable Torontonians to get to Cherry/Clark beaches and enjoy themselves.

I think he may be geographically challenged as there are no plans to bring the waterfront LRT east past Parliament Street for many years. There will be a line from King Street down Cherry to the rail corridor, one from Union Station to Parliament along Queens Quay and the plan is for these to be built in 2012/13 (or at least finished for Pan Am Games) and these will be linked under the railway berm as soon as the plans and work on the lower Don are finalised, possibly by 2015 and the PA Games. Extending the line further east to Cherry Beach, Unwin Street, Tommy Thompson Park and, I suppose, the new streetcar barns at Leslie and Queen Street is FAR further away.
 
You must not have ever been to New York or Boston or Chicago or etc tc. Obviously there's plenty of horrible planning and sprawl in the States, more than most countries, but you can't just throw out the good with the bad.
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Chicago is an absolute shithole. Half the city is a depressed or a ghetto. It's the most segregated city in the world. Most of the chicagoland's population is not even in chicago, but in the suburbs. Chicago had what - 3.2 million er so people, while the chicagoland has 9.5... give me a break, really. Lets not forget that in almost 30 years they managed to build only one new line on their metro.

Look at this, http://www.citymayors.com/features/quality_survey.html , if you are interested in why american cities should be disregarded as failures.



Comparisons are useless. Toronto's context is unique. Let's build what's right for TO.
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Exactly why the pro-LRT guys should be quiet when they start saying, "look these european cities have trams, we should to"... but no, we are not a 300,000 person city.
 
Also the large cities in Europe that are building streetcar routes already have huge Metro systems. The LRT systems there are strickly for feeder routes and local transit and they are not part of the mass/rapid transit system.
 
LAz said:
Chicago is an absolute shithole. Half the city is a depressed or a ghetto. It's the most segregated city in the world. Most of the chicagoland's population is not even in chicago, but in the suburbs. Chicago had what - 3.2 million er so people, while the chicagoland has 9.5... give me a break, really. Lets not forget that in almost 30 years they managed to build only one new line on their metro.
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Chicago is nowhere near the most segregated city in the world. And if you're taking Chicagoland into account, it's actually got more people in the City compared to the region than Toronto does. Chicago has over 33% of all residents of Chicagoland, while Toronto has closer to 30% of residents in the GTA.

And when was the last time that Toronto's expanded it's metro :rolleyes:

EDIT: ssiguy's hit the nail on the head. In all those big European cities that LRT's being built in, it's as an improvement to the bus, not to open up entirely new corridors. They're to improve service in short corridors where busses are getting crowded, or could use an incentive to use, but don't have big regional significance that would require higher order transit. Basically all of the TC routes don't fit this bill at all.
And also, now that those European cities are filling out LRT in the gaps in their networks, many of them are planning for new subway expansions further out into the suburbs.
 
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Chicago is nowhere near the most segregated city in the world.
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What the hell are you talking about? Just measure the index of dissimilarity and you will see how high it is.
http://blogs.bet.com/news/newsyoushouldknow/chicago-is-nation’s-most-segregated-city/
http://www.thechicago77.com/2009/01/chicago-is-americas-most-segregated-city/
segregation-map-of-chicago.png




CAnd if you're taking Chicagoland into account, it's actually got more people in the City compared to the region than Toronto does. Chicago has over 33% of all residents of Chicagoland, while Toronto has closer to 30% of residents in the GTA.
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Very wrong. Check your numbers.
Toronto has about 50%.



You forget that they have massive subway systems as backbone, which we seriously lack here.
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It pains me to see that people are talking about the tree but missing the forest. On Wednesdays in LAz-land that is one of the worst crimes to commit, worse than murder.




edit/add:
What is really freaky about american cities is how bad the slums are. They're insane. In Chicago a person gets shot every day or every other day. I remember reading an article in 2005 or so that said "after 430 days nobody is shot", or something like that.
 
LAz said:
What the hell are you talking about? Just measure the index of dissimilarity and you will see how high it is.
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Detroit? Jburg? Delhi? Canada's a pretty flawless gem to compare other cities to.

LAz said:
Very wrong. Check your numbers.
Toronto has about 50%.
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Sorry, I meant GGH, which is a very comparable region to Chicagoland. It's home to 8.1 million people. That puts the numbers at 30%.

LAz said:
t pains me to see that people are talking about the tree but missing the forest. On Wednesdays in LAz-land that is one of the worst crimes to commit, worse than murder.
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Umm I don't get it. What would the forest be in this circumstance?
 
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Detroit? Jburg? Delhi?
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Hm, I believe that Chicago is the most segregated in the US.

I am not sure about jburg or delhi, but chicago is segregated by race - those are by income?






According to wiki the urban area is 8,711,000, while the metro area is 9,785,747 - yet the city is only 2,853,114 - I thought it was over 3.




Umm I don't get it. What would the forest be in this circumstance?
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The guy talking about cities with some of the biggest most impressive subway systems in the world, as examples for LRT.
 
LAz said:
Hm, I believe that Chicago is the most segregated in the US.

I am not sure about jburg or delhi, but chicago is segregated by race - those are by income?
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If anything in the US is the most segregated, it's Detroit.

They are all of the above, but if you're looking for race, they all have very racially segregated populations.

LAz said:
According to wiki the urban area is 8,711,000, while the metro area is 9,785,747 - yet the city is only 2,853,114 - I thought it was over 3.
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I used your numbers. Using those numbers and Toronto numbers from wikipedia, the percentage for Chicago is 29.1%. Toronto is 29.8% Not the kind of difference that makes Toronto any kind of angel.


LAz said:
The guy talking about cities with some of the biggest most impressive subway systems in the world, as examples for LRT.
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No, the guy just talking about the biggest and most impressive cities in the developed world. Though that said, there does happen to be a correlation.
 
If anything in the US is the most segregated, it's Detroit.
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I gave you two articles that say that chicago is the most. What bothers me is how you reject that as if it is b.s.


I used your numbers. Using those numbers and Toronto numbers from wikipedia, the percentage for Chicago is 29.1%. Toronto is 29.8% Not the kind of difference that makes Toronto any kind of angel.
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How did you get such low numbers for Toronto? Either you do not know math or I do not know it. Toronto's numbers are close to 50%, as the area is about 2.5, while the urban area is about 5 - so that is about 50% - how are your numbers so much lower?


edit:
While I can not find a single thing about detroit in terms of maps of segregation, here's an annimated racial segregation map of chicago- http://beyondmeresurvival.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/animsidelegend.gif
 
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LAz said:
How did you get such low numbers for Toronto? Either you do not know math or I do not know it. Toronto's numbers are close to 50%, as the area is about 2.5, while the urban area is about 5 - so that is about 50% - how are your numbers so much lower?
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It's called the Greater Golden Horseshoe, the real Metro Toronto. When you compare Chicagoland to the Golden Horseshoe, the regions become much more similar than compared to Chicagoland vs the GTA. The GTA has an area of about 7,100 square km. Chicagoland, on the other hand, has a US MSA of over 24,000 square km, and a CSA of over 28,000 square km. Conversely, the GGH's total area is about 31,500 square km, of which over 5000 square km of places like Eastern Peterborough and Norfolk Counties are only included because they share counties with cities that do interact with the GGH. That's why I prefer to use the GGH, at least definitely when comparing it to US metropolitan areas.

EDIT: Interesting find Mapleson. I actually never would have guessed that.
 
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From the US Census Bureau, Milwaukee-Waukesha is the most segregated Metropolitian area in the US.
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It depends on how things are calculated - but I was talking about just the city itself, not the metro area.

At any rate, all this is suggesting that US cities suck, and they should not be models to look at.



It's called the Greater Golden Horseshoe, the real Metro Toronto.
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Are you for REAL, or are you trying to b.s. with me?
Hey, all things aside, I could start b.s.ing too.

I could start with "we need to take out what trams are left in toronto", or "to get rid of the automobile competency", and other b.s...
 
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