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Smitherman's Transit plan

Fresh Start said:
58 Malton = 11,250 of 15,000ppd or 703pphpd
112 West Mall = 3850 of 7700ppd or 241pphpd
111 East Mall = 3050 of 6100ppd or 191pphpd
46 Martin Grove = 8050 of 16,100ppd or 503pphpd
45 Kipling = 9250 of 18,500ppd or 578pphpd
37 Islington = 8300 of 16,600ppd of 519pphpd
73 Royal York = 8900ppd or 556.25pphpd
76 Scarlett = 7400ppd or 463pphpd
35 Jane = 19,500 of 39000ppd or 1219pphpd
89 Weston = 10,650 of 14,200ppd or 666pphpd
32 Eglinton West = 20,550 of 41,100 or 1284pphpd
---
Total for Eglinton West subway= 110,750ppd or 6922pphpd
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That truly has to be the most absurd calculation I've ever seen! Even when you ignore that many of the passengers on the 32, are already using another of those buses and being double-counted! Do we really have to explain why this is so wrong?

It's almost as absurd as the notion that the once councillor who has tried to cut TTC service at every opportunity, is suddenly going to be pro-transit!
 
kettal said:
Ok, let's pretend that 200,000 riders come out of the woodwork and all rush on to the new Eglinton Subway. Not LRT. Subway. Unless they just like to go to random destinations along Eglinton during rush hour (very few do), they will have to transfer to an intersecting transit route... like, say, Yonge. Oops, I just remembered, Yonge is already beyond capacity TODAY.

A DRL as far north as Eglinton in both the east and west would be required LONG before Eg ridership gets anywhere near subway levels. And guess what such a DRL's existence does? It makes any Eglinton subway totally redundant in terms of peak direction capacity.
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Regarding the eastern segment, you are right. DRL East is needed anyway to relief Yonge, not just south of Bloor but even south of Eglinton; and if DRL East is built up to Eglinton, it will split the Eglinton East ridership to the point manageable by LRT.

However, DRL West is not an equally pressing need. Spadina line has plenty of spare capacity north of Bloor. Trains are never crowded leaving Eglinton West southbound, even though part of morning peak service short-turns at St Clair West. Spadina line is pretty busy south of Bloor; however DRL East will relief not just Yonge, but the southern (University) segment of Spadina as well. Quite a few people travel from Danforth across Yonge to St George and transfer to University southbound; they will have an alternative with DRL East in place.

However, not building the Eglinton line to subway capacity might necessitate building DRL West earlier than it would otherwise be needed.

So, options are:
A) Eglinton subway + DRL East subway
B) Eglinton LRT + DRL East subway + DRL West subway
C) Eglinton LRT + DRL East subway + Lawrence LRT

Either of the above options will probably cope with demand in 30 - 50 years from now, but option (A) is cheaper, and more likely to get actually built (each of the above lines is a major investment and therefore hard to even get going).
 
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And building LRTs with tunneled segments that are designed to be converted to subways at a future date is not a new idea - Brussels has been doing it for years.
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About as stupid as I have heard. Comparing a million person city to humongous Toronto. Sad. Appalling actually.


And many German Cities.
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Exactly the same as mentioned above. Why compare such small cities.

OMFG GUYS, Sudbury!! They do not even have a subway system! Lets demolish ours! Woo, horray for the idiocy of comparing apples and oranges !

Bullshit aside, major German cities like Berlin, Munich, or lets even add German speaking Vienna, make us look like primitive scum. As do many european systems. They're simply superior to what we have here in North America.
But no, lets compare Toronto to some tiny half million cities like Gothenburg, Bergen, or Zurich. Oh god how this is appalling. Maybe Split in Croatia could serve as an example? Might fine place, some 200,000 people. Or perhaps that small village up near the arctic circle?
 
It really amazes me how people are ready to settle for less than they deserve...
Maybe that's my outsider's point of view...

I'm from Montreal

and Montreal is way more broke than Toronto
The STM is as broke as the TTC even when its subsidized
Quebec is WAY MORE broke than Ontario

and yet the Montreal Subway will get a 33% extension...
although they are plans for LRT in Montreal, they never propose to extend the existing lines with LRT...


People do settle for less here...
and the sad part is politicians know it and take advantage of it...
 
Ansem said:
It really amazes me how people are ready to settle for less than they deserve...
Maybe that's my outsider's point of view...

I'm from Montreal

and Montreal is way more broke than Toronto
The STM is as broke as the TTC even when its subsidized
Quebec is WAY MORE broke than Ontario

and yet the Montreal Subway will get a 33% extension...
although they are plans for LRT in Montreal, they never propose to extend the existing lines with LRT...


People do settle for less here...
and the sad part is politicians know it and take advantage of it...
Click to expand...

The communist Miller-istas at city hall love one thing even more than foisting their bankrupt socialist agenda on us broke taxpayers and that's spending our money like rock stars.

A side note, some of the European cities mentioned above have debts that make Toronto's $2 billion debt look like chump change.
 
Paleo said:
The communist Miller-istas at city hall love one thing even more than foisting their bankrupt socialist agenda on us broke taxpayers and that's spending our money like rock stars.

A side note, some of the European cities mentioned above have debts that make Toronto's $2 billion debt look like chump change.
Click to expand...

Yes, because "Fiscal Conservatives" are so much better at keeping us out of debt (ref: Harper, Mulroney, etc). And even when they don't manage to sink us into debt, they screw over hospitals, schools, and transit (ref: Harris). Yes, Mr. McCarthy, they're really so much better than those evil commies.
 
Paleo said:
The communist Miller-istas at city hall love one thing even more than foisting their bankrupt socialist agenda on us broke taxpayers and that's spending our money like rock stars.

A side note, some of the European cities mentioned above have debts that make Toronto's $2 billion debt look like chump change.
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Public transportation= investment not expense...

Would Paris or London be the great city that it is if it was debt free and a very poor transit system???

Again...settling
 
Ansem said:
It really amazes me how people are ready to settle for less than they deserve...
Maybe that's my outsider's point of view...

I'm from Montreal

and Montreal is way more broke than Toronto
The STM is as broke as the TTC even when its subsidized
Quebec is WAY MORE broke than Ontario

and yet the Montreal Subway will get a 33% extension...
although they are plans for LRT in Montreal, they never propose to extend the existing lines with LRT...


People do settle for less here...
and the sad part is politicians know it and take advantage of it...
Click to expand...

omg. There is nothing inherently inferior about tunneled LRT. Same speed, same frequency, less cost (yes, even in the tunneled portion).

I know...subways have higher capacity. They also have silver exteriors. Who cares. We don't need either of those on this line, especially on the western/eastern legs. This line will not be over LRT capacity, so there's no good reason to overbuild the middle, underbuild the outer legs, or force unnecessary transfers.

Please read through the ECLRT thread. This has all been debated in great detail there.
 
SlickFranky said:
omg. There is nothing inherently inferior about tunneled LRT. Same speed, same frequency, less cost (yes, even in the tunneled portion).

I know...subways have higher capacity. They also have silver exteriors. Who cares. We don't need either of those on this line, especially on the western/eastern legs. This line will not be over LRT capacity, so there's no good reason to overbuild the middle, underbuild the outer legs, or force unnecessary transfers.

Please read through the ECLRT thread. This has all been debated in great detail there.
Click to expand...

What happens when the DRL reaches Eglinton on both side?
 
When I say the SELRT and SRT replacement are going to screw Toronto for decades, I'm not being a drama queen. Look at the SRT now. If it had been built as streetcar as originally planned, it would be being replaced with a subway now. But instead they used this newfangled technology forced on them by the government. And now they're replacing it with LRT, but the ridiculous transfer a couple stops away from STC is remaining. How on god's green earth does this make any sense, to anyone? There's an Urban Growth Centre a couple kilometres away, but we'll leave the transfer at Kennedy. Real forward-thinking LRTistas. And Sheppard East LRT? It just boggles the mind in its complete, utter, insane stupidity. You'd think they planned transit in Toronto by throwing darts at a map of the city.
 
our tax dollars at work

Ansem said:
It really amazes me how people are ready to settle for less than they deserve...
Maybe that's my outsider's point of view...

I'm from Montreal

and Montreal is way more broke than Toronto
The STM is as broke as the TTC even when its subsidized
Quebec is WAY MORE broke than Ontario

and yet the Montreal Subway will get a 33% extension...
although they are plans for LRT in Montreal, they never propose to extend the existing lines with LRT...


People do settle for less here...
and the sad part is politicians know it and take advantage of it...
Click to expand...

That's because the federal government takes between $20 billion and $25 billion a year out of Ontario and a lot of it ends up in the hands of the Quebec government. Montreal builds subways because Toronto pays for them. Now if only the f*cks would end our misery and separate...
 
Same speed, same frequency, less cost (yes, even in the tunneled portion).
Click to expand...

The tunneled portion would cost barely more in order for it to be a real metro. So why not spend the small bit more, only like what, two percent more than the lrt, but in return you'll get something superior.



What happens when the DRL reaches Eglinton on both side?
Click to expand...

As things are going right now, we will probably be dead long before that happens. Well, maybe a few of us might see it.
 
Coruscanti Cognoscente said:
Look at the SRT now. If it had been built as streetcar as originally planned, it would be being replaced with a subway now. But instead they used this newfangled technology forced on them by the government.
Click to expand...

I agree that the SRT should be replaced with subway but this reasoning makes no sense to me. You are saying that if they had built the SRT with a streetcar that handles less capacity than the ALRT, that the project now would be to build a subway... but by building a larger capacity solution in the past they will use a lower capacity solution now? That seems illogical. If they had built the previous solution as a streetcar the plan now would certainly be to run the city version of the new LRVs in a coupled pair since no change to the tracks would be necessary, and not to build a subway. The reality is that by using the ALRT in the past which made no sense as a white elephant technology, they created a greater opportunity for a subway to be built now because the existing system needs replacement anyways but even still that opportunity is not being realized. If you wanted there to be a greater chance for a future subway to be built on Sheppard East the technology that has the shortest time to obsolescence is the one which will give you the greatest chance of a nearer term replacement with subway.
 
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