Smitherman's Transit plan

[nfitz]

Also the large cities in Europe that are building streetcar routes already have huge Metro systems. The LRT systems there are strickly for feeder routes and local transit and they are not part of the mass/rapid transit system.

I can think many examples of cities in Europe that are building streetcar routes, that don't have huge Metro systems. Heck there are examples in the UK ... and only one city in the UK has a bigger Metro system than the TTC.

 

[Mapleson]

Kuala Lumpur is basically the same size (2750 sq km) and population (4.4 M) as Toronto, but only has LRT.

 

[Second_in_pie]

It depends on how things are calculated - but I was talking about just the city itself, not the metro area.

At any rate, all this is suggesting that US cities suck, and they should not be models to look at.

As I said, don't compare pieces of coal with a diamond. Canada's one of the most tolerant countries in the world.

Are you for REAL, or are you trying to b.s. with me?
Hey, all things aside, I could start b.s.ing too.

I could start with "we need to take out what trams are left in toronto", or "to get rid of the automobile competency", and other b.s...

Alright, then I guess you think it makes sense to compare one region's population with one 4 times the size of it? That's cool...

 

[Second_in_pie]

I can think many examples of cities in Europe that are building streetcar routes, that don't have huge Metro systems. Heck there are examples in the UK ... and only one city in the UK has a bigger Metro system than the TTC.

"Heck there are examples in the UK..." Be more specific?

 

[Justin10000]

"Heck there are examples in the UK..." Be more specific?

Manchester, Sheffield, Newcastle, Nottingham....

 

[Mapleson]

"Heck there are examples in the UK..." Be more specific?

Birmingham UK 1,017,000 City, 2,284,000 Metro
Leeds UK 778,000 City 1,500,000 Metro
Sheffield UK 535,000 City 640,000 Metro
Manchester UK 464,000 City 2,240,230 Metro
Liverpool UK 435,000 City 817,000 Metro
Newcastle upon Tyne UK 234,000 City 800,000 Metro

 

[Second_in_pie]

While admittedly Manchester's metropolitan pop is 2.2 million (though the LRT only serves about 600,000 people.) it's LRT lines operate basically as metros outside downtown a la Calgary or Ottawa. And changing from Manchester's pre-LRT commuter rails to LRT has actually attracted criticism, because the service has actually gotten worse from the heavy rail that existed before. It was originally made to link Manchester's 2 railway stations, a distance of about 2 km.

Sheffield, urban population 600,000. Newcastle population 70,000. Nottingham, Urban population 650,000.
Toronto, population 2.5 million, urban population 5.5 million. Hm.

EDIT: I think Mapleson has better figures than I do, but they're all significantly lower than Toronto's 2.5 million (and still growing hugely,) population city proper.

 

[Mapleson]

If you want cities that are similar in size and density to Toronto:

Guadalajara Mexico 3,500,000 metro 5,900 people per sq km
Athens Greece 3,685,000 metro 5,400 people per sq km
Madrid Spain 4,900,000 metro 5,200 people per sq km
Barcelona Spain 3,900,000 metro 4,850 people per sq km
Belo Horizonte Brazil 4,000,000 metro 4,600 people per sq km
Berlin Germany 3,675,000 metro 3,750 people per sq km
Riyadh Saudi Arabia 4,000,000 metro 3,650 people per sq km
Kuala Lumpur Malaysia 4,400,000 metro 2,750 people per sq km
Milan Italy 4,250,000 metro 2,750 people per sq km
Toronto Canada 4,367,000 metro 2,650 people per sq km
Sydney Australia 3,502,000 metro 2,100 people per sq km
Miami USA 4,919,000 metro 1,700 people per sq km

 

[Second_in_pie]

But right there you've listed cities that are either very auto dependent or have huge and extensive metro systems.

 

[SlickFranky]

WTH are we even talking about anymore!?!? There's no point in trying to find an apples-to-apples match for Toronto, and even if we found one...who's to say that city is 'right' and we're 'wrong'?
We're building LRT's in our suburbs (not in our dense core) and we're not exactly the first city to do that. Even metro-rich London and Madrid have recently built suburban LRTs.

 

[Second_in_pie]

But the point is that London and Madrid have subway networks to support their denser areas.

 

[SlickFranky]

But the point is that London and Madrid have subway networks to support their denser areas.

...and TC is not aimed at our denser areas, it's aimed at our suburbs.

 

[Second_in_pie]

You could argue the contrary based on the way Toronto's density is spread throughout the city and along corridors like Sheppard, Eglinton, Don Mills or Jane. And there's also our dense downtown-like regions such as NYCC and STC.

 

[The Mad Navigator]

You could argue the contrary based on the way Toronto's density is spread throughout the city and along corridors like Sheppard, Eglinton, Don Mills or Jane. And there's also our dense downtown-like regions such as NYCC and STC.

Haha those areas aren't THAT dense.....

 

[EnviroTO]

You could argue the contrary based on the way Toronto's density is spread throughout the city and along corridors like Sheppard, Eglinton, Don Mills or Jane. And there's also our dense downtown-like regions such as NYCC and STC.

NYCC already has a subway and STC is all of two blocks with a shopping mall and a vast suburban parking lot. If you look are where most of those subways in Madrid or Barcelona are located they are in areas where there isn't 6 traffic lane streets, strip malls, and shopping malls with large parking lots. Even the new suburbs where Madrid has built subway have buildings flush with the sidewalks, very few traffic lanes, and no massive parking lots. Driving would be a pain in Madrid because even on the few streets where there are 6 lane streets 4 of them are parking lanes. The places where Transit City will be above ground are areas built for cars and even after reducing the number of traffic lanes to 4 they will have more traffic lanes than almost all the city streets which have impressive subway maps.