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Smitherman's Transit plan

Forecast demands can be easily manipulated
I'm quite sure a planner will try and manipulate a 700 demand to the 10,000 or so necessary for subway. While estimates will surely increase (for the initial estimates were for 2020 or so, and now we'd estimate 2030 or 2035), it's no conceivable that they would increase ten-fold!

And I fail to see how asking a question about the numbers 'challenges my credibility'.
A question ... that's fine. I thought you were trying to justify why this subway should be extended to Sherway - which of course can not be justified.
 
If a Dixie-Dundas stop were to be built at the same time as Sherway and East Mall, then the need for East Mall decreases considerably, but I imagine it'd still be built (not every bus would be re-routed to Dixie and Dundas.

As for East Mall being desolate, I don't know what you're talking about. And how it's indirect for bus routes, I really have ZERO clue what you're talking about as it's more direct than your beloved Sherway.

Tell me something, are we building the subway extension solely for the sake Mississauga Transit or are local pedestrians not supposed to benefit from the line as well? The spacing gap in between Kipling and the East Mall is much too broad. If Mississauga wants a commuter line into Toronto, it should be pressing for full fare-integration and all-day service along the Milton corridor; not dictating to Toronto where and how its subway system must be built.

If you knew anything about the Six-Points area you would not be suggesting the things that you are. Walk-ability to/from local stations is very important for urban density to grow and thrive. It’s a mere 208 m from Honeydale/CPR to the office building on the NE corner of Dundas/Shaver, 252 m from Honeydale/CPR to the office buildings between Billingham and East Mall Cres., and best of all, only 416 m from Honeydale/CPR to the main entrance of Cloverdale Mall. Don’t believe my math, check it out for yourself: http://www.daftlogic.com/projects-google-maps-distance-calculator.htm

You say that you have no clue. Well I’ve gone to the trouble of drawing you an illustration:
Sherway.jpg


We’re following the CPR, hydro corridor and easements on the 427’s endowment lands, to save on construction costs by keeping the subway at-grade and allow for quick, direct path to N Queen/Queensway that affects as few private properties as possible. Any urban planner/civil engineer worth their weight in accreditation would agree. All the red lines signify the route motions that could operate out of Sherway Gardens. Even a new circle route following North Queen, Norseman, RY, Judson, Horner and Brown’s Line would be possible; as well as a realigned 112 West Mall, express BRT into downtown Toronto via the Gardiner, and into downtown Oakville, Malton, Woodbridge, even Bramalea. No more hours-long 2-3 transfers to get to the subway for 905 West. It would seem then that Sherway’s as practical as it is beloved.

There can be a Dundas local bus straight across the corridor but limited stopping express buses (101, 201) can feed into an area where express is permittable. There’s no rule that all routes must feed into the same hub. Although Sherway Gardens is 1565 metres south of Dundas Street, it’d still be remarkably faster for just about every MT route sans 3 Bloor to operate out of because of the absence of any mitigating lights and traffic en route. Not being required to stop allows vehicles to accelerate up to speeds of 60 kilometres per hour, covering the vast distance in ZERO time. From Sherway to Burnhamthrope and the West Mall would only be 3 minutes and 35 seconds. Why subject passengers to longer bus commutes than they have to? You’re also forgetting about reverse PM peak traffic outbound to the 905 suburbs which will desire to travel as far west aboard the subway as to avoid the pitfalls of slower surface transit. Subway + busway would give them optimal travel speeds right into Mississauga.

As the map clearly demonstrates, at its closest point an “East Mall Stn” following the hydro corridor south of the CPR would still be 773 metres away from Dundas/427, which to pass busses through would affect several properties. Still sticking by your “theory” that if ramps can be built at Sherway, they can be built anywhere? So the same bus motions done today would have to be used to get busses into East Mall, which lacks a direct intersection with Dundas so busses would have to run east along Dundas, north along East Mall Cres, south along East Mall and vice-versa everytime they try connecting with such a stop location (at a distance of 1661 metres). That would take 3 min and 20 seconds under the best of conditions to route; compare this to even Honeydale which would only take 2 min and 2 seconds.

Btw, a simple underpass by which buses can duck in and out of the highway corridor just south of the Queensway is hardly pricy infrastructure and in all likelihood Cadillac Fairview - one of North America's largest investors, owners and managers of commercial real estate - would more than welcome this initiative onto their property to attract even more mall patronage.

So to wit, is it my beloved Sherway, or just plain common sense? Think about it. Though you probably won’t because you’re too busy with your fingers jabbed up your ears screaming “LALALALALA! East Mall rocks! LALALALALALA!!”
 
A question ... that's fine. I thought you were trying to justify why this subway should be extended to Sherway - which of course can not be justified.

If it can't be justified then Yonge north of Eglinton can't be justiied, or Bloor-Danforth west of Keele and east of Woodbine, or all of the Spadina Line. If people 50-60 years ago thought the same defeatist, non-visionary manner so many alledged pro-transit people here do, Toronto would be about as sophisticated public transport-wise as a backwater croc-infested bayou. The real farce of all this is if they really sell enough of the public on the notion that a 1.8 km, one-stop extension to nowhere beats ending the line at the junction of 3 major interregional arteries opposite one of the largest high-end retail shopping centres in Ontario.
 
Once again I must stress the 700 forcast number is bogus, at least until I can see how they came to such a rediculous low number. Like it or not, the hundreds of thousands of passengers using Finch do not walk to the station from its vicinity, nor do the dozens of bus routes from across the GTA (including Toronto proper) arrive empty. The vast majority of subway ridership gets to the trains from some form of feeder route.

My conspiracy theory says that the TTC DID find Sherway to be a logical extension, but didn't want to spend on an extension for whatever reason. This could be why they claimed only 700 would use this stop, and why it is looking to be ressurected.

Secondly, I really think the train should go direct from Kipling to Sherway. First, any stop in between would be servicing low density industrial. To see how successful this could be, I urge you to check out the crowds at Ellesmere and Midland stations... This kind of area would be better served by local bus rather than full rapid transit. Secondly, this line already stops far too often. The frequent stops on the Bloor-Danforth line outside of downtown limits this line's appeal, thus pushing some commuters on to GO or into cars. It would be good to give this line an extended stretch of open track to Sherway Gardens.

Finally, this talk about building it for Mississauga voters illustrates a problem we have in the GTA, where every municipality has its own focus and any efforts of cohesion are scorned. I think it is time to create a new "Metro Toronto" including Peel, York, west Durham, and Toronto to address issues like suburbs leeching off city infrastructure, and cohesive regional planning. Oshawa would become its own regional municipality annexing the municipalities of east Durham. And Halton would become part of Hamilton, or at least its regional municipality.
 
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Fresh Start, the lovely thing about buses is that you can route them anywhere, as you have in your map. That doesn't mean it makes sense to. Doady, Drum and myself have all explained to you why Sherway won't be used by MT. I'm not going to bother doing it once again, in yet another thread, off-topic beyond belief, again.
 
Fresh Start, the lovely thing about buses is that you can route them anywhere, as you have in your map. That doesn't mean it makes sense to. Doady, Drum and myself have all explained to you why Sherway won't be used by MT. I'm not going to bother doing it once again, in yet another thread, off-topic beyond belief, again.

It doesn't matter whether you agree with me, so long as you're willing to acknowledge that I'm putting a lot of inituitive thought and effort into my justification of billing Sherway as a potential major interregional hub. And as far as walk-ins go, they'd benefit far more from the stop locations that I'm proposing (Shorncliffe and North Queen) than what you'd like to see to get done (East Mall and West Mall).

Sorry if I went off-topic.
 
You say that you have no clue. Well I’ve gone to the trouble of drawing you an illustration:
An interesting choice of words ...

Your illustration is flawed, as it shows the station at Sherway Gardens Road and Queensway. The previous proposal waas to use the hydro right-of-way and locate the Sherway station about 1 lilometre further west at West Mall.
 
Spadina extension vs SLRT: layman's comparison

Perhaps I understood the reason Mr. Smitherman wants to replace the SLRT project with subway, rather than Eglinton or Sheppard.

From the public relations standpoint, SLRT in its present form can become a disaster:

Spadina extension (2.65 billion): 6 new subway stations, provides one-sit ride downtown, connects with a number of major surface routes.

SLRT (2.45 billion): only 2 new rapid transit stations, retains transfer at Kennedy, does not reach Malvern Centre, the extended section connects with just a few surface routes and even with those, not at the most useful points.

This is how it it will look for an average voter / taxpayer who is not a transit expert or transit fan. (Even though the above comparison is not entirely fair: it ignores the capacity increase between Kennedy and STC, and the fact that SLRT cost absorbs more inflation since it is scheduled to open 5 years later than TYSSE.)
 
Metrolinx and Smitherman's plan: coordinated?

There seems to be some level of coordination between the recent Metrolinx decisions and the Smitherman's plan:

1) Metrolinx: about to order TBMs for Eglinton tunnel, which probably seals the technology choice (LRT). Smitherman: keeps Eglinton as LRT.

2) Metrolinx: about to order light rail cars for TC: Eglinton, Sheppard, Finch, SLRT. But will the LRVs bought for SLRT be redundant if Smitherman replaces it with subway? No, they could be all used if he extends Eglinton LRT from Jane to Royal York, and Finch LRT from Humber College to Woodbine.
 
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There seems to be some level of coordination between the recent Metrolinx decisions and the Smitherman's plan
My theory is that Smitherman know in advance what was going down with Metrolinx - and if not the details of the revised plan, that something was coming. And then tailored his transit plan to fit it. Which would explain why he went so long without giving much detail.

Shame he cocked up his 2015-2020 plan do badly.
 
My theory is that Smitherman know in advance what was going down with Metrolinx - and if not the details of the revised plan, that something was coming. And then tailored his transit plan to fit it. Which would explain why he went so long without giving much detail.

Shame he cocked up his 2015-2020 plan do badly.

The not so secret background to Smitherman's plan is that it was created by two Metrolinx board members. As Steve Munro noted the maps where created by Malone Given Parsons Ltd, the firm of Metrolinx board member Lee Parsons.
 
This is a good thing in my mind. It is my belief that the biggest flaw in Transit City was converting the SRT to LRT instead of subway and if Smitherman has Metrolinx buy in then it has a chance of happening. With the subway ending at SCC all ends of the subway system radiating from downtown to end at one of the "Places to Grow" (i.e. Etobicoke Centre, Vaughan Centre, Scarborough Centre, and with the Yonge extension Richmond Hill Centre). With the eastern DRL we could also end up with a downtown to Markham Centre subway. The resulting system of subways plus "Places to Grow" plans makes it look like everything was well thought out except for the Sheppard subway which in my opinion should have been LRT from the start since there is no way I can see the SCC to North York Centre loads being close to what exists going downtown. An LRT from North York Centre to SCC on Sheppard East and a Finch East and West LRT from Malvern to the Airport handles crosstown trips more properly than a subway with some form of transfer required at either the Yonge or Univeristy line and at either Fairview Mall or SCC.

Subways:
University Line: Union - St.George - Eglinton West - Downsview - Finch West - Vaughan Centre.
Yonge Line: Union - Bloor - Eglinton - Sheppard - Finch - Richmond Hill Centre.
Bloor Line: Bloor - St.George - Dundas West - Etobicoke Centre.
Danforth Line: Bloor - Pape - Kennedy - Scarborough Centre.
Don Mills Line: King - Pape - Flemingdon Park - Fairview - Seneca Hill - Markham Centre.
Airport Line: King - Roncesvalles - Dundas West - Mount Dennis - Weston - Kipling Kingsview - Pearson Airport.

LRT:
Eglinton West LRT: Eglinton - Eglinton West - Mount Dennis - Richview - Renforth Gateway - Pearson Airport.
Eglinton East LRT: Eglinton - Flemingdon Park - Kennedy - Scarborough Village - UofT Scarborough - Malvern Town Centre.
Sheppard West LRT: Sheppard - Downsview - Sheppard West - Etobicoke North GO - Kipling Kingsview - Richview - Etobicoke Centre.
Sheppard East LRT: Sheppard - Fairview - Scarborough Centre - UofT Scarborough - Pickering Centre.
Finch West LRT: Finch - Finch West - Emery Village GO - Humber College - Woodbine Live - Carlingview GO - Pearson Airport.
Finch East LRT: Finch - Seneca Hill - Malvern Town Centre.

New Streetcar Routes:
Roncesvalles Station - The Queensway - Sherway Gardens Mall.
Existing St.Clair Streetcar @ Gunns Loop - Scarlett - Dundas West - Etobicoke Centre - Kipling - Humber College Lakeshore Campus.
Existing Kingston Rd Streetcar @ Bingham Loop - Kingston Road - Midland Ave - Kennedy Station.
Victoria Park - Danforth Ave - Kingston Road - Scarborough Village.
 
^ Mostly makes sense.

However, since Sheppard East LRT as planned will stay on Sheppard and will not divert to SCC, it is desirable to extend "Danforth subway" 1.7 km further north to Sheppard / McCowan, and connect to SELRT.
 
My theory is that Smitherman know in advance what was going down with Metrolinx - and if not the details of the revised plan, that something was coming. And then tailored his transit plan to fit it. Which would explain why he went so long without giving much detail.

This is a possibility; but we do not know who calls the shots. Another possibility is that Smitherman's plan is the master document, while Metrolinx, a provincial agency, plays along to help the former Liberal cabinet member become the mayor.
 
Sherway gardens subway

I believe that Sherway gardens subway will not happen, unless it actually crosses into Mississauga and ends, for example, at Dixie / Dundas.

Toronto council cannot afford the full cost of that extension, it will provide at best 1/3. The provincial and federal contributions are unlikely to happen unless the line crosses the municipal boundary.

So, either Mr. Smitherman included this extension just in order to harvest votes in Southern Etobicoke, and will drop it in favor of more plausible projects ... or, the Province will propose subway into Mississauga, after (and if) Smitherman becomes the mayor.
 

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