Smitherman's Transit plan

[Second_in_pie]

Uh ... the Kennedy/Kipling extensions were a single project. Your telling me the 1.5 km extension to Kipling was a significant distance, but the 1.8 km extension from Kipling to East Mall isn't? 2.1 km to Downsview is significant, but 1.8 km isn't?

I might be a bit late here, but take note that there's barely anything around that part of East Mall. A highway and some industry. Kipling's got the whole ECC or whatever it is going on as an anchor, and Kennedy's got a pretty big neighborhood around it too.

 

[nfitz]

See RTES Exhibit ES-14. West Mall (aka Sherway) is listed as a "Proposed Station"; East Mall is listed as a "Potential Future Station".

My point stands ... Yes ... the same way Willowdale is a potential future station. That doesn't mean we count it. I'm not sure what your point here is; it wasn't factored into the RTES volume calculations.

I think it makes sense to just build them both at the same time, considering how far behind Toronto is Rapid Transit Expansion.

Your really going to justify an almost 2-km extension from East Mall to Sherway for a projected peak hour ridership of 700 people? Come on, there must be another link in the city where 2 km of subway would be of more use.

 

[nfitz]

I might be a bit late here, but take note that there's barely anything around that part of East Mall. A highway and some industry. Kipling's got the whole ECC or whatever it is going on as an anchor, and Kennedy's got a pretty big neighborhood around it too.

I don't disagree ... it was the classification of a 1.5 km extension and a 2.1 km extension being a significant distance, while a 1.8 km isn't that perplexed me

 

[taal]

All of this, transit growth in general throughout the GTA, was in many ways spearheaded by Miller ... hate him or like him, yes there were many plans in the works prior to his election but he really pushed transit city ... hate that or like that ... that helped get a lot of regional planning underway, and then the recession, which in many ways helped as well - I think if *any* plans were more evolved say 2/3 years ago we'd see a lot more action as of today, at a time when the government was funding anything left, right and center, to both inject money, and to bolster their image.

Anyway, the point is, it seems no matter who wins, at the end of the day, I think we'll get some slight variant on transit city, no matter what they propose in their platform.

 

[SimonP]

The press is savaging Smitherman's plan. I wonder if this failed initiative will further wilt his already shaky front runner status. Here is a round up of the headlines:

*Fast train to nowhere (Globe and Mail)
*Smitherman’s plan simply a transit lover’s fantasy (Globe and Mail)
*Transit plan jumps the rails (National Post)
*Foes blow the wheels off Smitherman transit plan (Sun)
*Toronto transit plan panned (CBC)
*Furious George's curious counting (Sun)

 

[kEiThZ]

^ I must say though, I find it odd that the press is savaging any candidate over how they'll pay for their transit plan. Nobody asked that at the last election. We all assumed that the province would pay. And realistically speaking, regardless of who gets elected, the province will be paying for the bulk of the expansion.

 

[kEiThZ]

I will say this. I think Smitherman's plan is far more sellable than people think. The critics may not like it. But that does not mean the public won't like it.

 

[gweed123]

Yes ... the same way Willowdale is a potential future station. That doesn't mean we count it. I'm not sure what your point here is; it wasn't factored into the RTES volume calculations. And has no relevance to the post you quoted, which is questioning why a 1.8 km extension from Kipling to East Mall is not a significant distance, when 1.5 km extensions and 2.1 km extensions are.

The extension to Kennedy was significant because of the connection to the Scarborough RT. The Kipling extension was just thrown in because if Scarborough got a subway extension, Etobicoke had to get one. There was very little solid planning rationale behind the extension to Kipling, aside from the mythical future Etobicoke RT. It was just politics.

And the rationale for extending to Sherway is the same rationale for ending the Sheppard subway at Don Mills (aside from the fact that they ran out of money): major mall, lots of development potential around it, directly adjacent to a major highway going into the city. Don Mills works well, why wouldn't Sherway? Are the two really that different?

 

[gweed123]

And nfitz, did they have any off-peak or daily ridership projections? The reason I ask is:

1) Malls are generally not peak generators. If the movement of the Mississauga bus routes from Islington to Sherway was not factored into that 700 pphpd number, that could account for the low number. Generally, malls get the bulk of their usage from noon to 7pm on weekdays, and 11 to 6 on weekends. Peak hour numbers are usually done for morning commutes as well, and nobody besides those working at the mall would be going to Sherway at 9am.

2) In 2001, the condos around Sherway wern't there. Those condos could potentially add a thousand or so commuters.

3) I bet they didn't also factor in a Don Mills-style Park n ride lot, which could potentially syphon off another couple thousand drivers a day off the Gardiner/QEW.

 

[Dan416]

And nfitz, did they have any off-peak or daily ridership projections? The reason I ask is:

1) Malls are generally not peak generators. If the movement of the Mississauga bus routes from Islington to Sherway was not factored into that 700 pphpd number, that could account for the low number. Generally, malls get the bulk of their usage from noon to 7pm on weekdays, and 11 to 6 on weekends. Peak hour numbers are usually done for morning commutes as well, and nobody besides those working at the mall would be going to Sherway at 9am.

2) In 2001, the condos around Sherway wern't there. Those condos could potentially add a thousand or so commuters.

3) I bet they didn't also factor in a Don Mills-style Park n ride lot, which could potentially syphon off another couple thousand drivers a day off the Gardiner/QEW.

Can we PLEASE stop talking about Mississauga Transit buses going to Sherway. There is currently a grand total of ONE MT bus that serves Sherway. A subway expansion to Sherway will NOT change this. As people who know more about MT than I do have already said many times (drum and doady), MT buses would service East Mall. That is why if Sherway is build, East Mall needs to be built too. Otherwise MT would continue to service Kipling and Islington. I really wanna shake anyone who says MT will service Sherway VERY VERY hard to get it into their heads that MT has no interest in a Sherway station. Sherway is too far south (it's at The Queensway!). Mississauga's least dense portion is Queensway and on to Lakeshore. East Mall and Dundas serves the 1 Dundas and all the buses that come off the 427. No need to route them a few kilometers out of their way to try and justify Sherway's expansion. I think both are needed. But East Mall is needed more.

 

[Fresh Start]

How will buses get from the 427 to East Mall Stn? If its via the existing method, then it offers little time advantage compared to Sherway where special transit-only off-ramps could be constructed affecting no other properties than Cadillac Fairview's. Buses along the highway can clock speeds anywhere from 50-70kph. The way I see it, let Dundas buses continue route to East Mall, 3 Bloor to Kipling, 26 B'thrope to Islington; the rest are a toss up going to wherever's the most feasible.

 

[Dan416]

How will buses get from the 427 to East Mall Stn? If its via the existing method, then it offers little time advantage compared to Sherway where special transit-only off-ramps could be constructed affecting no other properties than Cadillac Fairview's. Buses along the highway can clock speeds anywhere from 50-70kph. The way I see it, let Dundas buses continue route to East Mall, 3 Bloor to Kipling, 26 B'thrope to Islington; the rest are a toss up going to wherever's the most feasible.

If you're going to go to the trouble of building bus-only ramps, you can do it anywhere. So it makes to do it closer to the populaton being served. End of story. Sherway is irrelevant to Mississauga. How many times does it have to be said?

 

[Fresh Start]

Fine, whatever. I've done enough pointless arguing with UT members for one night.

 

[nfitz]

And the rationale for extending to Sherway is the same rationale for ending the Sheppard subway at Don Mills (aside from the fact that they ran out of money): major mall, lots of development potential around it, directly adjacent to a major highway going into the city. Don Mills works well, why wouldn't Sherway? Are the two really that different?

Very different. The planners are forecasted only 700 riders for peak hour, only 7,144 passengers per day at Sherway. The forecasts for Don Mills station were several times this. Fairview Mall isn't the major driver, look at the population density around here, and the number of bus routes. While route 15 and 80 end there, neither would feed that many passengers - and the two routes combined only have 5,300 a day - I'd think only a fraction would want to head the wrong way to the subway.. Route 123 would be well served - 5,800 passengers per day. And it would also serve Mississauga route 4, which runs every 32 minutes in rush hour (the remaining routes would be better served by an East Mall station, or the existing Islington and Kipling stations).

I'm just shocked that you are defending a subway with less than 1,000 at peak hour. This only confirms my suspicions that much of this subway expansion push is not driven by either passenger demand, or a rational use of money. It really challenges your credibility.

And nfitz, did they have any off-peak or daily ridership projections?

Sherway ... 7,144 per day.

The reason I ask is:

Yeah, I know where you are going ... and it's for this reason that the York University works. Peak hour is only forecast (in 2001 for 2021) to be 3,800 ... however the daily total is a quite high 81,762 (compare to Eglinton West, where they forecast a peak hour of 4,100 but only a daily total of 45,448).

 

[Fresh Start]

I don't think anyone here, even CC, is pushing for Bloor West expansion ahead of prioritizing the Downtown Relief subway, Danforth east to Scarborough Centre and a fully grade-separated RT right across Eglinton that reaches Terminal 1. But of all the "new" ideas presented in Smitherman's Transit City 2.0, this issue is the least divisive.

I don't think stopping at East Mall is a good idea when the further west you push it, the more people you would be aiding. If an extension went to Dixie-Dundas, it'd benefit MT even more and get the majority of regional buses off congested Toronto arteries like Dundas and B'thrope. Sherway Gardens is the largest trip generator west of Kipling within Toronto. So again it's not that anyone here necessarily wants to rationalize a 700 ppdph extension, but given our current situation it's not that bad an alternative to an all-LRT plan like TC which does nothing at all for southwestern Etobicoke or alleviating Islington/Kipling and the highway conditions that exist along Dundas Street today due to all that bus traffic.