SmartTrack (Proposed)

[BMO]

If I was Tory I would go with the Crosstown LRT extension for Eglinton west, but with enhanced grade separation (maybe cut & cover or elevate over major intersections, otherwise the LRT would be at grade). I would then brand this section as "SmartTrack West", "SmartTrack Lite", or make "SmartTrack" a transit plan made up of numerous transit projects, rather than a specific line.

If Tory decided to make "SmartTrack" a transit plan instead of a line, then using Eglinton West's ~$5 billion he could:

• Extend Line 5 Crosstown LRT to Pearson with grade separations at major intersections ~$1.5 billion
• Re-route traditional SmartTrack/GO RER along existing corridor to Woodbine (as province will pay for RER anyways) ~$ essentially free
• Fund "Waterfront transit" - East Bayfront LRT, Waterfront West LRT ~ $1 billion
• Fund some TTC capital/state of good repair projects ~1 billion
• Then announce the Relief Line is his next major project to focus on, and commit some money as a starting point right off the bat ~$1.5 billion

I know this is all hypothetical but Tory could kill many birds with one stone and score some major political points if he is willing to change his vision to do something, well, more visionary.

While I'm all for allocating $1.5B to a pot of money for the DRL I don't think the political appetite is there to just have $1.5B sitting around not doing anything. I agree with the rest of what you said though. I'd like to see that money go towards extending Sheppard westward to the Spadina line for some more redundancy in the local transit network personally or Finch LRT connection to Finch Station. The DRL is a provincial Next Wave project so hopefully the province steps in and funds it.

 

[ssiguy2]

I'm not surprised that Tory has effectively changed his plan.

Tory never struck me as a particularly ideological individual. Ya, he's a politician but is also pragmatic.

The idea of ST is a good one but it's the Eglinton West section that made no sense. You don't hear much bitching about the rest of the line because it is a fundamentally good idea by making better use of already existing infrastructure.

 

[44 North]

I'm not surprised that Tory has effectively changed his plan.

Tory never struck me as a particularly ideological individual. Ya, he's a politician but is also pragmatic.

The idea of ST is a good one but it's the Eglinton West section that made no sense. You don't hear much bitching about the rest of the line because it is a fundamentally good idea by making better use of already existing infrastructure.

I think the east half of SmartTrack (aka Stouffville RER + more stations as per the Prov's existing plan) is "good"... But I think few realize that something significantly better and which provides more coverage overall would be to delay Stouffville RER indefinitely and instead use that money to push for Lake Shore East RER + DRL + Scarb Subway (or SLRT). These are longstanding projects going back decades, combined would carry 25x Stouffville RER's ridership, and would basically set the east half of TO and the southeastern GTA for decades to come. These projects should be our priority, and adding ST East / Stouffville RER only complicates things and further delays these long, long overdue projects

 

[BMO]

I think the east half of SmartTrack (aka Stouffville RER + more stations as per the Prov's existing plan) is "good"... But I think few realize that something significantly better and which provides more coverage overall would be to delay Stouffville RER indefinitely and instead use that money to push for Lake Shore East RER + DRL + Scarb Subway (or SLRT). These are longstanding projects going back decades, combined would carry 25x Stouffville RER's ridership, and would basically set the east half of TO and the southeastern GTA for decades to come. These projects should be our priority, and adding ST East / Stouffville RER only complicates things and further delays these long, long overdue projects

The difference is all of those projects can't get shovels in the ground during an election term. Because none of those have EAs completed nor have approved routing. Whereas Smartrack essentially has 80% of the route already built and it's a matter of building the stations and hashing out agreements with the Province instead of requiring expropriations, etc for a corridor.

 

[crs1026]

I think the east half of SmartTrack (aka Stouffville RER + more stations as per the Prov's existing plan) is "good"... But I think few realize that something significantly better and which provides more coverage overall would be to delay Stouffville RER indefinitely and instead use that money to push for Lake Shore East RER + DRL + Scarb Subway (or SLRT). These are longstanding projects going back decades, combined would carry 25x Stouffville RER's ridership, and would basically set the east half of TO and the southeastern GTA for decades to come. These projects should be our priority, and adding ST East / Stouffville RER only complicates things and further delays these long, long overdue projects

I can get on board with this, but I would position Stouffville as slowed not stopped. The four track Union-Scarboro Jct expansion counts against both projects. Completing the second track from Scarboro Jct to Agincourt is not a huge pile of cash and would enable a limited version of 2WAD service on the inner portion of that line. I do think this would be popular and really improve the Scarboro picture, call it RER or ST or whatever you want.

I don't see how your premise can be packaged without reaching a decision on Scarb Subway vs SLRT. The difference in cost is just too big to sidestep.

PS - going back a few posts, I do recall that Tory suggested that Scarboro ST would at least delay any need for DRL, but maybe I'm having a seniors' moment.

- Paul

 

[44 North]

I can get on board with this, but I would position Stouffville as slowed not stopped. The four track Union-Scarboro Jct expansion counts against both projects. Completing the second track from Scarboro Jct to Agincourt is not a huge pile of cash and would enable a limited version of 2WAD service on the inner portion of that line. I do think this would be popular and really improve the Scarboro picture, call it RER or ST or whatever you want.

I don't see how your premise can be packaged without reaching a decision on Scarb Subway vs SLRT. The difference in cost is just too big to sidestep.

PS - going back a few posts, I do recall that Tory suggested that Scarboro ST would at least delay any need for DRL, but maybe I'm having a seniors' moment.

- Paul

For sure, I definitely don't want GO expansion to stop. I meant perhaps to delay pouring big money for electrified RER for the time being on one corridor (Stouffville), so that we can perhaps focus on a longstanding RER priority (Lake Shore). Even excluding all that ancient GO-ALRT stuff, in the last decade Lake Shore was prioritized as the only GO corridor to be electrified. Now it's not, and their electrification plans are much grander. I don't want to sound like a pessimist, but with each and every major transit expansion plan in the last fifty years what ends up coming out is very little. And seemingly more often than not it's the biggest priorities that end up being dropped. Or we end up building new priorities that come out of left field.

With the Scarb Jct to Agincourt section, do we know the costs yet? And are they bundling the groundwork for electrification with that project, or does that come at a later date - with AD2W in the interim?

Hm, I don't recall Tory saying ST would delay the need for a DRL. I definitely hope not. Despite this fishy SmartTrack nonsense, and his vague responses on the transit front, I actually think he's a pretty good mayor so far. But that opinion would wane considerably if I find out he's actively delaying DRL planning and implementation.

 

[crs1026]

With the Scarb Jct to Agincourt section, do we know the costs yet? And are they bundling the groundwork for electrification with that project, or does that come at a later date - with AD2W in the interim?

I haven't seen a specific quote for this item. I'm making a layman's guess that double tracking this section is not any more costly than the section being done further north. Some challenging grade separation is required, but that is maybe $100M, not $1B. Certainly, it could be done without electrifying.

Your point about shifting priorities is absolutely true, but sometimes it's a case of having talked a good line right up until the moment when the price is finally front and center. Electrification is a good example of this - it has been in the mix for a couple of decades. Whenever it comes close to the top of the list - we balk, there are so many other things we could do with the money and not spend as much.

It's a slippery slope - deferring electrification probably puts a limit on how frequent trains can run, and it means not buying new equipment. So do we buy more diesel hauled equipment in the meanwhile? How much of the envelope for electrification does this drain?

I would like to see electrification approached more incrementally. The first section would have to be from Willowbrook to Union - and that's a big piece. Then have a plan of one line electrified at a time, with the cost spread out, and a plan to acquire new equipment in batches integrating the cutover milestones and the end-of-life for the current fleet.

Hm, I don't recall Tory saying ST would delay the need for a DRL. I definitely hope not. Despite this fishy SmartTrack nonsense, and his vague responses on the transit front, I actually think he's a pretty good mayor so far. But that opinion would wane considerably if I find out he's actively delaying DRL planning and implementation.

Well, I'm not sure I can be sure what he thinks. In his election campaign, he did support the relief line, mostly once it was known that Olivia Chow opposed it. But once he had tabled ST, he appeared to be pushing it forward and the relief line as something for another day.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...es-ttc-relief-line-off-track/article21529398/
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...cenarios_while_awaiting_election_outcome.html

We never seem to see the final version of studies. Again, coming face to face with the hard truths seems just too scary for Toronto politicians.

- Paul

 

[W. K. Lis]

What SmartTrack looks like

from a point-of-view of someone from Weston. See link.

"A detailed map of the “1D” alignment"

"The viability of plan 1A"

"Plan 1C to discuss. It would—brace yourself: Require widening the train corridor from Nickle to Jane (which would have an “impact” on properties, would have to be tunneled under the “industrial, residential and hospital” properties, and would cross the park on stilts. Emmett would be closed permanently. The details are not available, but I made a guess at it to give you an idea."

 

[salsa]

What SmartTrack looks like

BREAKING: New preliminary renderings released by the mayor's office provide a sneak peak of what Smart Track may look like. The mayor denies having seen these images, says they have not been finalized yet.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

What SmartTrack looks like

from a point-of-view of someone from Weston. See link.

"Wheee!"

 

[Hopkins123]

So Olivia Chow is vindicated after all. SmartTrack definitely would destroy Mount Dennis with all that expropriation entailed.

 

[the lemur]

I guess there's no way to tunnel under Eglinton Flats and join the Crosstown around Scarlett ...

 

[TheTigerMaster]

So Olivia Chow is vindicated after all. SmartTrack definitely would destroy Mount Dennis with all that expropriation entailed.

Well not just Chow, but all the SmartTrack critics.

 

[salsa]

Well not just Chow, but all the SmartTrack critics.

Remember, those people are just being a "Debbie Downer" who cannot see our manifest destiny.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

I guess there's no way to tunnel under Eglinton Flats and join the Crosstown around Scarlett ...

The elevations between Weston and Royal York are a challenge. Eglinton Flats are a depressed area, and anything below their grade would probably require significant waterproofing and constant pumping of water out of the area. Another question is how to facilitate transfers with the Jane LRT. Going west, then you have to get over or under the Humber. Then you have to get up-grade towards Royal York. And if it's heavy rail, that puts a bigger restriction on the grades that the train is allowed to climb.

Tunneling would push towards the higher ballpark of $5 billion, and I think it would need to go beyond Eglinton Flats if you're to successfully deal with the elevation and water challenges. Again, this is where light rail could be superior. I think punching out of a portal west of Weston Road, you could elevate the LRT until east of the Humber River, and go surface to Renforth, which would mean less groundwater issues and less cost.

EDIT: crude illustration. Dashed = underground, skinny lines = elevated, nothing = surface.