SmartTrack (Proposed)

[kEiThZ]

I always said it would be rolled into RER. Good to see this happening. We'll finally get a GO system that is focused on commuters as opposed to just a subset (905ers) of them.

 

[CapitalSeven]

There are two keys to NOT having SmartTrack making the curve onto Eglinton.

1. Show that SmartTrack can be just as efficient and serve many people by following a GO corridor for its full length. This is relatively easy - as is evidenced by the line going to Malton or Brampton. This is somewhat symmetrical with the East end going to Markham, and provides better service to the north-west corner of Toronto.
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2. Show that the Airport Corporate Centre area can be served by higher order rapid transit in another way. The most obvious way is to elevate the LRT line through most of Etobicoke. It is obvious that on-street LRT would not be sufficient - because it is the exact on-street plan that led to Mr. Tory's SmartTrack promise in the first place.

I agree with number 1., and it will cost a lot less too. However, it is neither obvious nor I think true that LRT would not be sufficient. That is not a densely populated corner of the city, and if there is two-way traffic on the line towards downtown and toward the Renforth/Airport area, the loads would balance out nicely. With RER at Mount Dennis and the subway at Eglinton West, there is no way that heavy rail capacity is needed. And let's not forget the RER is going to be 4 trains an hour, so 4-6K riders an hour. An LRT could take care of that with trains 5-6 minutes apart, at a much lower price, and without the need to keep running buses down Eglinton.

 

[gweed123]

I am just not sure how easy it would be to modify those ramps and create access to the triangle (if it is the NW corner in this picture).

The way I see it, where it loops back under Islington would become a T intersection, with the station located immediately south of that T. The bus loop would be on the west side of the T, with the roadway continuing under Islington to the east. There may not be much parking space there, but I think there's enough for a station and a bus loop at least.

 

[TOareaFan]

The way I see it, where it loops back under Islington would become a T intersection, with the station located immediately south of that T. The bus loop would be on the west side of the T, with the roadway continuing under Islington to the east. There may not be much parking space there, but I think there's enough for a station and a bus loop at least.

Going back to how we got talking about this, though, I am not sure what the gain is in closing Etobicoke North station at Kipling that has some parking to open a station just to the east at Islington in a location where the bolded part is very true.

 

[jcam]

Might not be a terrible idea as a special events only station. Days like the Queen's Plate can draw 30-40000 people, and there's not really a transit option that is remotely appealing.

I'd leave it there. It allows people coming from the west to transfer to UPX. Also, if they were to connect the Finch LRT south the airport (eventual Phase 2), you could have a transfer there. Add in the connection of the Crosstown to the airport (also Phase 2), then you could have an LRT hub at the airport. I'd bring the alignment down the west side of 27, and probably elevate it (it's industrial land), then bring it down the center of or along the side of Dixon (which has a large right of way, but major traffic congestion). I'd be tempted to lay track along Dixon all the way to Islington, and loop it up through Rexdale to Etobicoke North GO/SmartTrack. This essentially creates a mini-LRT that serves the densely populated portion of central etobicoke.

 

[gweed123]

Going back to how we got talking about this, though, I am not sure what the gain is in closing Etobicoke North station at Kipling that has some parking to open a station just to the east at Islington in a location where the bolded part is very true.

The parking is a pretty small consideration in the grand scheme of things. Parking for ~100 cars isn't going to make or break a station's success. The success of a station comes principally from surface connections, but also from walk-ins. For both of those categories, I think the Islington site is superior to the current Kipling site, especially when it comes to access to/from the 401. Also, any loss of parking at Kipling can be made up for at Woodbine, and then some.

Now having said that, having the station remain at Kipling isn't the end of the world. The station site still works, it's just I think Islington would work better. Also, if a station is placed at Highway 27, moving the station to Islington would increase the stop spacing between those two stations.

 

[mrgrieves]

SmartTrack and the UP Express

I would love if someone can help me understand one simple concept. The Union-Pearson express will begin operations in 2015, running trains every 15 minutes. John Tory's SmartTrack proposes running trains on the same GO train line as the UP Express, as well another GO line east of Union towards Markham and a spur along Eglinton West (also every 15 minutes).

The part I would love clarification on is the where the SmartTrack and UP Express overlap. The only difference I see is that Tory proposes electrifying the line, something that Metrolinx has publicly said it plans to do anyway.

Would there actually be two lines running on the same tracks but with different stops? It seems confusing that the UP Express and SmartTrack are not (publicly at least) part of the same conversation.

I can't imagine that in a city with such severe infrastructure issues as Toronto that the UP Express will operate in its intended form (very high price point, few stops) for very long...

 

[innsertnamehere]

UPx runs at a separate service from existing GO operations.

At this point its hard to say exactly what will occur with Smart Track as there is no real information on it like how it will utilize track space on the Georgetown corridor or whether it will simply be GO RER with integrated fares. Right now Smart Track is a very, very vague project, there are a whole lot of very basic questions about the project that need to be answered.

Space wise the UPx fits perfectly fine into existing GO planning, the Georgetown corridor is very wide.

as for multiple lines using the same corridor, its going to happen. Smart Track isn't going to the airport, the UPx's primary destination. Plus south of Dundas there are actually 4 lines (possibly 5 depending on what smart track is, and maybe even 6 if you include HSR) using the same rail corridor. Its really not that big of a deal.

 

[T-Bor]

I think his point is more about how given how absurdly expensive the UPx will be, and if ridership is not what is expected, it could be a pretty easy 'pivot' and change the SmartTrack map.

I think the SmartTrack alignment through northern Etobicoke was more about trying to win votes, and may very well just be the UPx for the western stretch. Especially if all it would take is adding a few in-between stations on the downtown shoulder areas and we'd have a new 'subway' I think it's something that the public could very much get behind

 

[mrgrieves]

UPx runs at a separate service from existing GO operations.

At this point its hard to say exactly what will occur with Smart Track as there is no real information on it like how it will utilize track space on the Georgetown corridor or whether it will simply be GO RER with integrated fares. Right now Smart Track is a very, very vague project, there are a whole lot of very basic questions about the project that need to be answered.

Space wise the UPx fits perfectly fine into existing GO planning, the Georgetown corridor is very wide.

as for multiple lines using the same corridor, its going to happen. Smart Track isn't going to the airport, the UPx's primary destination. Plus south of Dundas there are actually 4 lines (possibly 5 depending on what smart track is, and maybe even 6 if you include HSR) using the same rail corridor. Its really not that big of a deal.

Thanks for the reply. There is a lot of (well-deserved IMO) criticism of the UPx that it is not "public transit" but rather simply a connection between Pearson and Bay Street. Do you think Metrolinx intends to continue running the UPx in this form, and will have an additional line on the same corridor to provide local service to the airport (I understand that SmartTrack in its proposed form terminated the aiport corporate centre, but it can just be extended to the aiport).

On a side note, having these very wide GO corridors seems to provide a lot of potential flexibility in terms of running express trains, dual lines etc

 

[ehlow]

The biggest diff between the UPX and SmartTrack west side routes is that, at least in the preliminary campaign version, SmartTrack ran along Eglinton to Mississauga.

If ST route were changed to run to the airport instead where UPX runs, then it seems reasonable to convert UPX to ST by adding stops, electrifying, modifying the stations to be more rapid transit like, and adding more stations.

I'm guessing that how ST fits in with GO RER and UPX is being decided now between Metrolinx and the City.

During the debate Mr. Tory called SmartTrack an "adaptation" of the province's regional rail plan, noting that while his campaign came up with the name, it did not invent the concept.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...hes-rail-plan-into-high-gear/article21967280/

 

[ehlow]

John Tory’s motion pushes Toronto rail plan into higher gear

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...hes-rail-plan-into-high-gear/article21967280/

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Good. The first thing these experts should do is recommend the cancelation of the Line 2 extension. Building two subway lines in Scarborough two kilometres from each other has to be the dumbest idea I've heard in a long time.

 

[mdrejhon]

I thought UPX was a little overpriced, but it actually helps reduce the cost of SmartTrack. Amortized between UPX / SmartTrack / GO RER / Future HSR -- this is a strong route section with four proposed electricified services -- so a little bit of cost efficiencies are probably going to occur as a result of UPX having spent an insane amount of money preparing part of the corridor...

The catenary structures typically straddles the full width of the corridor including future planned tracks, even if the electric wire isn't above all tracks initially. And since three or four future services will run over the same corridor, lots of track-sharing is going to occur. The traction power stations will be shared by all routes. They better get their signalling & train-overtaking plans down pat, with a good advanced train traffic centre (like the new one they're about to build for Union revitalization, with the re-signalling in the Union corridor).

This bring sup the idea that there may be some mergers of the service (e.g. SmartTrack theoretically extended to Kitchener, as part of GO RER electricification, rather than running as two separate services) or they may still be distinctly branded. Either way, this is going to be a high-diversity high-traffic electricified corridor that, in two decades, will push the capacity limits of this corridor, at least to Eglinton (depending on where SmartTrack/UPX branches apart).

 

[mrgrieves]

What I find bizarre is that Tory presented ST as it if it were the most brilliant plan ever conceived, however did not mention (as far as I know) that most of the western portion is the UPx which will be completed in a matter of months!

In fact, I really don't recall any discussion at all during the mayoral campaign about UPx. People talk so much about a DRL, well there is one which is about to be built and operating. I really think that the gov't needs to be more transparent around the UPx and what its longer term plans are with the line.