SmartTrack (Proposed)

[mdrejhon]

Discussed today at Queens Park

http://www.thestar.com/news/city_ha...dy_part_of_ontario_rail_plans_wynne_says.html

It was quite obvious this would happen - SmartTrack is simply GO RER in disguise! Despite any disagreements, the agreements will come fairly easily on this plan compared to the past. Now we just need the Feds to pitch in. Red and blue will both be foced to make this a campaign issue or lose a lot of voters.

Good news though, it makes the ultra-ambitious 7-year timeline slightly more realistic if both Queens and Toronto are in full agreement on SmartTrack. Miracle if it happens by the end of Tory's 2nd term!

 

[TOareaFan]

It was quite obvious this would happen - SmartTrack is simply GO RER in disguise! Despite any disagreements, the agreements will come fairly easily on this plan compared to the past. Now we just need the Feds to pitch in. Red and blue will both be foced to make this a campaign issue or lose a lot of voters.

But the Liberal's promised all GO lines RER (15 minute service) within 10 years of their re-election without any federal funds.....not sure why it would now be contingent on federal involvement.

Good news though, it makes the ultra-ambitious 7-year timeline slightly more realistic if both Queens and Toronto are in full agreement on SmartTrack. Miracle if it happens by the end of Tory's 2nd term!

If we are all saying that ST and RER are essentially the same thing....why would a 7 year timeline on one part of RER be seen as "ultra-ambitious" when the province has been telling us the entire RER 15 minute service would be on all GO lines within 10 years?

 

[mdrejhon]

But the Liberal's promised all GO lines RER (15 minute service) within 10 years of their re-election without any federal funds.....not sure why it would now be contingent on federal involvement.

If we are all saying that ST and RER are essentially the same thing....why would a 7 year timeline on one part of RER be seen as "ultra-ambitious" when the province has been telling us the entire RER 15 minute service would be on all GO lines within 10 years?

Metrolinx said 10 years was a hugely aggressive acceleration of electricificatiom plans, so 7 years is even more so if it covers the full length.

The similarities (electricification + long length single-level electricified trains and reuse of some GO stations) between both GO RER and SmartTrack has so many commonalities, that they may even end up being the same train sets, since Metrolinx wanted to do single decker electric trains for GO RER. Colors, branding and/or livery may be different, or they use a different speed of train, but in theory, it is potentially an identical train model in size, length, electric, and number of decks, and highly probable of being operated by Metrolinx as they own the right of ways.

Beyond train branding, chief difference is really:
- Possibly TTC fare integration differences, but that's going to happen to the rest of the GO network when Presto is TTC-wide and they discontinue tokens/passes. Then this may cease to be the differentiation.
- The funding mechanism for SmartTrack being different from he rest of the GO network (3 levels of government versus 1 level) will be an intersting discussion. It may end up prioritizing SmartTrack electricification over Lakeshore electricification, and saving costs by ordering the same train model for GO RER and SmartTrack, and future campaigns even market the GO RER as "SmartTrack for the whole GO network" - or it may not. Few knew about GO RER until SmartTrack and many do not know just how related GO RER and SmartTrack is! (future campaigners may take that ball and run with it).

Either way, 15+ year electricification plans is already being accelerated to 10 (Metrolinx mentions "acceleration" of plans in their GO RER PowerPoint), and SmartTrack is an even further acceleration of plans, at least for one favoured route originally on Ontario agenda but now a 3-government-level agenda. It is a really aggressive timeline, and hopefully they can do it even if this "GO RER in disguise" is branded distinctly from the rest of the GO network, obviously from the funding differences.

Also, there will be necessary commonalities in spending, because they'll likely electricify (or prepare for electricification) this corridor at least semi-simultaneously for SmartTrack, UP Express and Kitchener GO RER. They all go over many kilometers of the same sections, before branching out. The overhead catenary structure necessarily straddle the full width of the corridor, who pays for that - SmartTrack funds or GO RER funds? Even if the overhead wire is above only some of the tracks at first initially, the same structures will out of necessity conveniently straddle all tracks right from the outset, and eventually hold all wires for all electricified services. Possibly share some of it over the same track. Who shares the track with whom (SmartTrack, Kitchener GO RER, and UP Express) in the shared sections? It ain't going to be six track so some sharing is necessary, and Metrolinx owns the rail now. And who pays for the traction supply buildings too, the electric transformers? Will the same new electricity substation be used for SmartTrack and UPX and RER? Etc. Etc. All an issue of negotiation. See? Since all levels of government will be be bona-fide indirectly funding a portion of the capital cost of supposedly Ontario-only GO RER due to shared infrastructure, due to the commonality, thanks to SmartTrack and previous committment of UP Express.

So all levels of government need to agree on an appropriate formula to split the cost of electricification (RER + UPX + SmartTrack) since it is not mathematically exact third-cost for certain sections, due to the three services having different funding formulas. It will save cost on the shared sections because they are forced to electrify in an interchangeable way. All three electricified services able to use any track on the shared sections, three electricified services using only four tracks, including when needing to pass each other. Etc. Etc.

It is ambitious. Bring it on!

 

[salsa]

But the Liberal's promised all GO lines RER (15 minute service) within 10 years of their re-election without any federal funds.....not sure why it would now be contingent on federal involvement.

Also not sure why the city should be obligated to pay 1/3 of the cost for something that was supposed to be paid entirely by the province.

 

[rbt]

If we are all saying that ST and RER are essentially the same thing....why would a 7 year timeline on one part of RER be seen as "ultra-ambitious" when the province has been telling us the entire RER 15 minute service would be on all GO lines within 10 years?

It's not ambitious for the mayor at all. We elected a "do nothing" for transit mayor, and frankly I'm thrilled it wasn't the more popular alternative.

Queen's Park is now GTA City Hall. The mayor of Toronto is irrelevant, Ford proved it and Tory is backing up that claim.

 

[mdrejhon]

Also not sure why the city should be obligated to pay 1/3 of the cost for something that was supposed to be paid entirely by the province.

We need to see what this really means. It is fair if it accelerates electricificarion to six or seven years, instead of ten, becomes the first route of electricificarion, funds 15min or better service right from opening day, TTC interchange stations, and adds extra infill stations ahead of schedule, and assures TTC fare integration. If it feels like an extra subway that is frequent, convenient, feels like it is part of TTC subway network, on day one, it may end up being money well spent to see it happen in less than half a generation -- how often can you build a speedy 22 station subway-feel service in only seven years, in a fully dedicated ROW all the way from Markham to near Mississauga? It is clever politics, as long as it reduces bickering between government levels and speeds things up. Toronto needs transit improvements very badly.

Personally...I would benefit more from Lakeshore electrification, so hopefully it just speeds up electricification schedule, benefiitting that too.

 

[salsa]

We need to see what this really means. It is fair if it accelerates electricificarion to six or seven years, instead of ten, becomes the first route of electricificarion, funds 15min or better service right from opening day, TTC interchange stations, and adds extra infill stations ahead of schedule, and assures TTC fare integration. If it feels like an extra subway that is frequent, convenient, feels like it is part of TTC subway network, on day one, it may end up being money well spent to see it happen in less than half a generation -- how often can you build a speedy 22 station subway-feel service in only seven years, in a fully dedicated ROW all the way from Markham to near Mississauga? It is clever politics, as long as it reduces bickering between government levels and speeds things up. Toronto needs it bad.

There are many other unfunded transit priorities that I think Toronto should be spending it's money on, and if Tory insists on sticking with his stupid TIF scheme, then no thanks I'm not interested in seeing Toronto reduced to financial ruin just to have it built in 7 years instead of 10 (if that's even possible). So far Tory has no plans to smarten up:

There is nothing that causes me to change the timeline, which is seven years, and to change the intention we have to build without increasing property taxes and to use other means to finance the construction of SmartTrack.

There has thus far, he said, been no “significant debate” about the viability of using Tax Increment Financing as a tool for raising the necessary money.

 

[mdrejhon]

There are many other unfunded transit priorities that I think Toronto should be spending it's money on, and if Tory insists on sticking with his stupid TIF scheme, then no thanks I'm not interested in seeing Toronto reduced to financial ruin just to have it built in 7 years instead of 10 (if that's even possible). So far Tory has no plans to smarten up:

It's a valid debate. I, too, have mixed feelings about TIF. TIF-incentivized development around some of these stations will definitely occur, for better or for worse. Strong developer incentive to develop TIF zones will likely means fewer big box stores (and possibly replacement of existing big box stores with multi-purpose mall-commercial-condo complexes) with condo towers adjacent even to pre-existing GOTrain stations along the SmartTrack route, making the more crowded GO stations more friendly to non-car-owners too (A Good Thing, IMHO). The nasty side is TIF, if it is allowed at all stations, it may cause extremely strong incentive to expropriate century houses and businesses (e.g. along Gerrard near Pape) to develop towers surrounding the brand new Gerrard SmartTrack station at Gerrard Square near Riverdale area, as an example (A Really Bad Thing, IMHO). Everybody's else opinion will vary. No shortage of potential future taxpayer revenue, since Toronto seems to have become one of those sustainingly-overpriced markets like London-Tokyo-NYC, so TIF may actually work partially successfully, and only need to find a little elsewhere but by then, approval ratings of SmartTrack could even be already through the roof, if the brute engineering is done properly and finished well. Even the debate of defining what exactly is "financial ruin" is complex (not everyone will agree what that is) and even that too, depends how partially successful/unsuccessful TIF is (it's rarely 0% success). There will be a circus over it.

I'm really just a spectator at this stage, so have nothing further to add to the TIF discussion, but the stars are aligning strongly towards SmartTrack initiatives happening at full throttle, TIF or otherwise. I'll watch the debate.

...Really, the primary purpose of my reply is really, to point out that it is more than than just "built in 7 years versus 10" (such as extra stations, extra full-route trackage such as 4 instead of 3, better interchange with TTC built sooner, etc).

 

[salsa]

...The primary purpose of my reply is really, to point out that it is more than than just "built in 7 years versus 10" (such as extra stations, extra full-route trackage such as 4 instead of 3, better interchange with TTC built sooner, etc).

I thought these extra perks were part of the Metrolinx plans all along. If not, then Tory should negotiate with the province to have those included, instead of having us pay billions for such modest improvements.

 

[TOareaFan]

We need to see what this really means. It is fair if it accelerates electricificarion to six or seven years, instead of ten, becomes the first route of electricificarion, funds 15min or better service right from opening day, TTC interchange stations, and adds extra infill stations ahead of schedule, and assures TTC fare integration.

Either I am confused about the 10 year provincial promise or everyone else is. I say this because when I consider that promise it makes the 7 year ST promise quite modest.

The 10 years was for all GO lines and when asked about it during the election Mr. Murray said right to the end of the lines. Yes, ML waited until after the election to shed some doubt on that as aggressive but they did say that most of it is possible and they were looking forward to seeing how much of it can be done.

So if all lines were to be delivering 15 minute 7 day a week, bi-directional service, within 10 years....how hard is it to say that a couple of those (isn't that essentially what ST is) would be able to do that on the sections within Toronto within 7 years?

And even though I am not a citizen/taxpayer of Toronto, I think it would totally unfair if the province were to try and lump 33% of the cost on the city for something they were going to build anyway out of the transit fund(s). All, I believe, the city should be responsible for is any additions that the province was not planning for. So, for example, if the Province was going to build only two new stops for the RER on the KW line (say, Mt. Dennis and Liberty Village) and the city negotiated a 3rd....then, sure, the city might be expected to pay for that.....but to suggest the province could/should opportunistically seize the opportunity to have Toronto pick up 1/3 of the tab for things already planned just seems wrong to me.

 

[gweed123]

Well I have to say, I'm very glad to see this announcement, and to see that the suspicions that myself and many others had on this forum was correct. SmartTrack is merely a subset of GO RER.

Realistically, the Georgetown South corridor with be RER-ready by early next year (by RER-ready, I mean all of the associated upgrades have been done, and all that needs to be done is to install equipment related to electrification). The Stouffville line requires double tracking and some grade separations, but planning work associated with that has been underway for quite a while.

I think it would be a very tight timeline, but I hope that at the end of 7 years we can see electrification of two lines: Brampton-Markham (probably from Bramalea to Unionville), and Lakeshore (probably from Oakville to Pickering). It's not a full rollout by any means, but it would be a great start. Of those corridors, Stouffville is the only one that would require non-electrification-related work.

There is a Metrolinx Board Meeting on December 11th, which if I remember correctly from discussions a few months ago will feature many more details about GO RER. I was planning on attending. Is anyone else planning on going?

 

[ssiguy2]

This is nothing but good news.

Metrolinx, Queen's Park, and the Mayor all on the same page and actually planning towards similar goals. The only thing that could make it better would be a federal contribution and we are coming up on an election year so if there ever was a time to get money out of Harper it's now.

It's also very significant that Tory stressed that it also requires federal money. Tory is putting Harper on the hot seat with him and good for him. This is why I said from day one that Tory was the best choice. He is not ideological enough to be divisive, he cannot be pegged as either a downtown elite or suburban hillbilly, and he knows how to build relationships. He, unlike Chow, will be the one person who will be able to pry money out of Harper as he has made it very clear that he will not get Tory's support unless Harper drops a lot of money.

GO RER also has the added advantage of being beneficial to all people in the GTA. the problem with getting funding for a DRL is that Harper will never give it one penny. It will be seen as helping the downtown area of Toronto and that is already a complete right-off for the Conservatives. He would see no political advantage in helping an area that will never vote for him anyway. those precious funds could be used to buy votes elsewhere.

GO RER offers the opportunity to relieve both city and suburban 416/905 traffic and transit woes. In other words he would see some real political advantage in giving money to a GO RER system in key battleground 416/905 seats. He is going to have to win some urban vote in order to beat Trudeau and he knows it.

Harper has no lost love for Wynne {actually he has no lost love for anyone except himself} but he definitely has an ally in Tory and Tory seems very determined to make sure that Harper knows that his support comes with strings attached..........good for him.

 

[Palma]

It's not ambitious for the mayor at all. We elected a "do nothing" for transit mayor, and frankly I'm thrilled it wasn't the more popular alternative.

Queen's Park is now GTA City Hall. The mayor of Toronto is irrelevant, Ford proved it and Tory is backing up that claim.

What are you talking about? You make no sense.

 

[Catenary]

Not true.
This has happened already in Ottawa. You can't get a standalone Ottawa OC Transpo bus pass anymore! You can only do Presto as a pass for Ottawa's buses and OTrain. They are now 100% Presto, no tokens, no passes.

Here's an example of fare integration opportunity. Presto is much more fun & efficient in Ottawa than Toronto, with tiny new-generation readers on all the bus poles on all bus entrances/exits, they read your Presto card faster than even the Toronto Union station Presto readers. (Ottawa was my hometown, so I visit there. I tap-on the Hamilton Street Railway, tap-on the GOTrain, then after the Ottawa leg (porter or via) I can tap-on OCTranspo. Nice -- three city systems in one day). While in Ottawa, if I've tapped on the Ottawa system, I can transfer for free to the Gatineau city system (another fare integration example between two municipal bus systems). In fact, Hamilton (2nd gen) and Ottawa (2nd gen) Presto systems seem to function better (now that the installation glitches have been ironed out) than even the GOTrain presto system (still 1st gen). They seem to reload much faster from online Presto refills -- once my card refilled in less than 3 hours -- they gotta keep improving that though (instant online refill is planned). Once GOTrain upgrades to 2nd gen Presto like Ottawa/Hamilton, and TTC goes from almost no Presto to 2nd gen Presto everywhere (though over a stupidly long timescale, ~2019-2020), then fare integration opportunities are easy.

You can still buy tickets, which is the equivalent of tokens. But yes, they have discontinued monthly physical bus passes in favour of Presto.

Contrary to both of your comments, both tickets and paper monthly passes remain available in Ottawa. The only chamge to their system upon the introduction of PRESTO was the elimination of the special O-Train ticket, which was previously discounted to a middle ground between cash fare and ticket price, because there was no way to use tickets on the train. Now the machines vend train tickets at full price, but bus tickets and paper monthly passes remain available.

I also do not believe that Hamilton is 2nd Gen, but I could be wrong. Ottawa is however the only system that has cellular connectivity to the readers on it's buses, so the readers are updated 3-6 times a day with new online loads.

 

[Rainforest]

I thought these extra perks were part of the Metrolinx plans all along. If not, then Tory should negotiate with the province to have those included, instead of having us pay billions for such modest improvements.

The province are "us", too.

Either those enhancements make sense (more frequent service, full fare integration etc); then there is nothing wrong with the city council raising a portion of the needed funds.

Or, they do not make sense at all (delivering same service, just 3 years earlier); then it is a waste of funds, whether they are coming from the city or from the province.