SmartTrack (Proposed)

[mdrejhon]

If Metrolinx decided to get rid of ALL GO fares as long as you don't cross a city boundary {ie Miss to Tor} and all you needed was your TTC pass then SmartTracks really wouldn't be needed.

Not true.
GO 15-minute service requires electricification, and did you know fare integration was going to happen, even before John Tory ran?

They were planning to do much better fare and station integration when Presto is more widely deployed all over TTC. Once this happens, TTC passes are going away by the end of this decade.

This has happened already in Ottawa. You can't get a standalone Ottawa OC Transpo bus pass anymore! You can only do Presto as a pass for Ottawa's buses and OTrain. They are now 100% Presto, no tokens, no passes.

Here's an example of fare integration opportunity. Presto is much more fun & efficient in Ottawa than Toronto, with tiny new-generation readers on all the bus poles on all bus entrances/exits, they read your Presto card faster than even the Toronto Union station Presto readers. (Ottawa was my hometown, so I visit there. I tap-on the Hamilton Street Railway, tap-on the GOTrain, then after the Ottawa leg (porter or via) I can tap-on OCTranspo. Nice -- three city systems in one day). While in Ottawa, if I've tapped on the Ottawa system, I can transfer for free to the Gatineau city system (another fare integration example between two municipal bus systems). In fact, Hamilton (2nd gen) and Ottawa (2nd gen) Presto systems seem to function better (now that the installation glitches have been ironed out) than even the GOTrain presto system (still 1st gen). They seem to reload much faster from online Presto refills -- once my card refilled in less than 3 hours -- they gotta keep improving that though (instant online refill is planned). Once GOTrain upgrades to 2nd gen Presto like Ottawa/Hamilton, and TTC goes from almost no Presto to 2nd gen Presto everywhere (though over a stupidly long timescale, ~2019-2020), then fare integration opportunities are easy.

Plus, Metrolinx is already on the record that fare integration between TTC and GO is going to keep expanding, and googling "Metrolinx 2031" (Existed before John Tory) shows they want to do more interchange stations between TTC and Metrolinx. Also, the SmartTrack route was a route that Metrolinx came up with, not TTC. Also, we need new infill stations when frequent single-decker electricified trains arrive (GO RER, SmartTrack, whatever), so it just also ends up being SmartTrack.

Over time, I would think that fares will be integrated in the central downtown part -- by the time SmartTrack is finished Presto will be fully deployed into TTC. So fare integration can occur right away.

Considering they are going to use the same electrified right-of-way in the central section between UP Express, SmartTrack, and electrified central Lakeshore East/West. A bunch of various different electricified train services are going to go over the same central section, and it's more efficient if Metrolinx operates it, so my betting money's on Metrolinx. Metrolinx already owns most of the surface track in these right-of ways. But if TTC or a merged TTC/MetroLinx operates, as long as it's efficient, I'm ok with that. But I think it's cheaper for the taxpayers if the owner of the tracks operates all the trains going over the tracks! Want to bet? (Theoretically, if it were legal, I'd even wager 100-1 odds). In fact, I think TTC-Metrolinx merger within 10-15 years is far more likely (aka TTC becomes a subsidary of Metrolinx) than TTC operating Smarttrack.

John Tory already went on record saying we shouldn't worry whether it's TTC or Metrolinx who operates SmartTrack.

My doubt is the 6-year timeline, which would theoretically complete Smarttrack just barely before Presto completeness on TTC (on TTC's worst-case date of >2020) permitting complete easy fare integration. TTC or Metrolinx aside, this is the strongest Toronto route I've ever felt in the last twenty years -- more enthusiasm than even the Sheppard subway before it was built and Eglinton Crosstown before it was built! Queen's defacto wants it, City Hall wants it, existing Council is mostly for it, new mayor wants it, a bigger share of GTA population generally likes it with less polarization than almost any recent transit project. Both the Libs/Cons will clearly have no choice but to endorse and fund it (the Cons-rich Smartrack endpoints and the Libs-rich Smarttrack centre) in order to avoid losing vote-rich Ontario. John Tory also seems fully eager to work with whatever 2015 Feds, for better or for worse. In this province, I haven't recently witnessed such strong GTA agreement in a long time, simultaneously on just a mere single new transit route. In such situations of more unamious government agreement, shovels can sometimes go in the ground quicker and completed miraculously on time (occasionally, somewhere else in the world, it happens -- rarely). So for me, all bets are off on "Are there going to be time overruns for Phase 1 SmartTrack?". But even the 6-year best-case John Tory SmartTrack timeline fits perfectly with Presto's TTC worst-case timeline, so fare integration is almost but guaranteed, as Metrolinxs' intent.

Bottom line, you're incorrect when you say SmartTrack wouldn't be needed: It was actually one Metrolinx's "GO RER" new GOTrain route ideas -- and fare integration is actually Metrolinx idea (much easier once TTC is 100% presto) -- even before John Tory.

 

[CapitalSeven]

Not true.
GO 15-minute service requires electricification, and did you know fare integration was going to happen, even before John Tory ran?

...

This has happened already in Ottawa. You can't get a standalone Ottawa OC Transpo bus pass anymore! You can only do Presto as a pass for Ottawa's buses and OTrain. They are now 100% Presto, no tokens, no passes.

Speaking of Ottawa, they also have 15-minute diesel service, which is about to change to 8-minute diesel service.

 

[mdrejhon]

Speaking of Ottawa, they also have 15-minute diesel service, which is about to change to 8-minute diesel service.

This be true.

It is easy when you've got a dedicated right-of-way solely for that specific route alone (OK, a rare freight trains sometimes run over it, but only during off-hours). Also, those trains are vastly smaller than GOTrains -- approximately the same size as the new TTC Flexity bendy streetcar. Also, the current 5-stop OTrain is only about 8km in total length -- barely more than the distance between many adjacent pairs of suburban GO stations.

With GO, you'll need to be routing multiple different 15-minute services over the same right of ways, over far longer routes, with additional infill stations added to GO routes, bidirectionally, with trains bigger than a TTC subway train. Vastly bigger challenge on a whole other level of magnitude. So GO can't stay diesel forever on all routes.

 

[salsa]

Incorrect.

Incorrect.

if you think SmartTrack will be run by the TTC you will be sorely mistaken.

Not true.

Facts and logic are futile. ssiguy2 will be back soon to repeat exactly the same thing, because

 

[flyinggoats]

Speaking of Ottawa, they also have 15-minute diesel service, which is about to change to 8-minute diesel service.

And most of the line in Ottawa is single track. I think Metrolinx should look at what they can do with the existing infrastructure, or maybe just modest investments to install some passing tracks (so they can operate bidirectional service on a single track line). Metrolinx likes to claim that additional tracks and electrification are required for 15-minute all-day service. That is simply not the entire truth. For example, the Lakeshore West line has trains leaving Union approximately every 10 minutes during the PM peak without electrification. If the current infrastructure can support frequent service during the peaks, why can the infrastructure support frequent service all day? Metrolinx ran two-way all-day (infrequent) service on the Barrie line during summer weekends with the current infrastructure. Why can't they operate the same type of service on week days?

I think they could do a lot more without spending billions on infrastructure: they just need more operating funds.

 

[innsertnamehere]

bi hourly frequencies are possible on most lines today, but for most people 20-30 minute bus service is preferred. Bi directional service collapses when the entire corridor is required to support peak trains as well.

Metrolinx isn't claiming that Electrification is required for 15 minute frequencies (UPx anyone?), but its a "nice" thing to have and the province wants it for environmental reasons.

We are at the point now as well where "minor" investments into passing tracks are kind of pointless as they will be used for a year or two before being replaced by a full double track.

 

[ksun]

You know Metrolinx is tooting the "RER" acronym -- Rapid Express Rail -- Paris has a similiar system although it stands for Réseau Express Régional ("Regional Express Network"), but the acronym is kept the same as a homage to Paris' system which apparently nearly exactly resembles what Toronto would have ten years from now.

The best model for comparison I can think of is the Paris RER which is the actual acronym of their frequent electrified service on "surface subways", that I believe GO borrowed. I see a lot of evidence that GO took a page from the French RER rulebook. Paris' RER is a 'surface subway' and covers hundreds of kilometers, just like the GO network. Assuming SmartTrack is modelled after Paris RER, the trains will be very similiar to subway-length or GOtrain-length, but be single decker for some of them.

(...the acronym GO took advantage of -- this is Paris' eqivalent of GO train but they run them every 15 minutes or more often)

.

No, RER is not just like GO. If you check out the map, RER has multiple stops in central Paris, while GO only stops in Union station and nothing else. Plus, RER is fully integrated with the subway system and GO is a completely different system. When I was taking transit in Paris, I often didn't know if it is the metro or the RER, while in Toronto, I have never taken GO train even once because it is just a suburban commute line and is almost useless unless you live in the outer suburbs.

http://parisbytrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/rer.pdf

 

[gweed123]

This has happened already in Ottawa. You can't get a standalone Ottawa OC Transpo bus pass anymore! You can only do Presto as a pass for Ottawa's buses and OTrain. They are now 100% Presto, no tokens, no passes.

You can still buy tickets, which is the equivalent of tokens. But yes, they have discontinued monthly physical bus passes in favour of Presto.

 

[T-Bor]

bi hourly frequencies are possible on most lines today, but for most people 20-30 minute bus service is preferred. Bi directional service collapses when the entire corridor is required to support peak trains as well.

Metrolinx isn't claiming that Electrification is required for 15 minute frequencies (UPx anyone?), but its a "nice" thing to have and the province wants it for environmental reasons.

We are at the point now as well where "minor" investments into passing tracks are kind of pointless as they will be used for a year or two before being replaced by a full double track.

I always thought that the electrification argument was lip service for environmental reasons, but really because trains can operate faster because they can start and stop more quickly. Thereby allowing more stations to be built in the 416

 

[ssiguy2]

Facts and logic are futile. ssiguy2 will be back soon to repeat exactly the same thing, because

Sorry Salsa, could you speak up? It didn't quite hear what you were saying.

Actually I did get what you were saying but I choose to ignore it but make sure you get back to us when you have something intelligent to say.

I still stand by what I said. If GO was to run higher frequencies {which eventually would require electrification} with all day service, with no extra fare required except your TTC pass then voila..........a SmartTrack system.

If the TTC/Metrolinx/GO stopped bickering amongst themselves and acting like they were running fiefdoms instead of transit systems then maybe Torontonians would be stuck with the transit system it currently has. It requires a change in mentality at those 3 agencies and telling them that how I get to where I'm going is NONE of their business.

Tell me, why should someone coming from Sheppard have to take the bus to the SRT, transfer to the SRT, transfer at the subway, transfer at another, and transfer to a streetcar just to get to Queen's Quay when there is one rail line that will take them all the way there if they can afford it? You are not getting charged for the distance you travel but rather for the technology you use to get there............absurd.

If you are travelling within the City of Toronto then you should pay the same fare. Paying more for one method based on the fact that is runs on a different type of rail track is ridiculous. It's like charging someone more if their electricity comes from an underground connection as opposed to an overhead pole.

This what Paris' RER is based on..............we don't care how you get there, our job is to just get you there as quickly and efficiently as possible and whether you choose Metro or RER is up to you.

 

[gweed123]

I always thought that the electrification argument was lip service for environmental reasons, but really because trains can operate faster because they can start and stop more quickly. Thereby allowing more stations to be built in the 416

Yup, that is the reason that I understood as well. It will allow GO to run smaller trains and smaller headways, and allow them to add more stations due to the increased "mobility" (acceleration/deceleration) of the trains. The environmental benefits are just a bonus.

The other big advantage is that it's much easier to run electrified trains through a tunnel than it is a diesel train. Electrifying the network at least puts tunnels on the options list.

 

[mdrejhon]

No, RER is not just like GO.

You are confusing today with tomorrow.

If you check out the map, RER has multiple stops in central Paris, while GO only stops in Union station and nothing else.

Correct for today.

But in Metrolinx 2031 plan, they are looking at multiple central stations concurrently with other initiatives, including a Union bypass and multiple 416 infill stations. SmartTrack (really a GO RER in disguise) actually adds quite a few 416 infills such as Gerrard-Pape (perfect fit for Gerrard Square Mall which is surprisingly quite heavily trafficked, and within walking of Riverdale, Pape Village, Cabbagetown, Little India, etc) and Liberty Village (at the opposite end of village far away from Exhibition station).

Plus, RER is fully integrated with the subway system and GO is a completely different system.

Correct.

But as I said again, the Metrolinx 2031 plan PDF (and several other Metrolinx related documents) shows
- more interchange points.
- more infill stations (in 416), including ones that don't have parking garages
- subway-like trains
- an additional hub that bypasses Union

Metrolinx essentially came up with SmartTrack long before John Tory did; John Tory is just helping accelerate things along (which is a Good Thing and also All Right with me).

Metrolinx is going to be downsizing to subway-sized single-decker electricified trains when they ramp up the services to all-day 15-minute service. The bilevels will still be needed for peak and high-capacity longer-haul, but future fleet expansion will be mainly via single-level electricified trains that looks like a subway train. And things are being accelerated; as SmartTrack might end up being ahead of schedule (Metrolinx wanted to build such a similar route 10+ years from now, John Tory is pushing aggressively for 6 years. Even if it's late and it's built in 8 years, it's still ahead of Metrolinx original schedule)

When I was taking transit in Paris, I often didn't know if it is the metro or the RER, while in Toronto, I have never taken GO train even once because it is just a suburban commute line and is almost useless unless you live in the outer suburbs.

Correct for today. Not correct for tomorrow.

With better fare integration (Presto), more interchange points (built over the next 20 years), and better signage, future 15-min RER-like routes (including SmartTrack) overlaid onto TTC subway maps, plus the planned single-decker frequent electricified trains -- there will be a point within our lifetimes that GO feels like it's part of the subway. The next generation's kids travelling in the 2040s will feel that the GO system in the same way you feel about today's Paris RER system.

If Metrolinx keeps up the current rapid pace of improvements they have been in the last 5 years (the all-day service started in 2013 on Lakeshore finally now feels almost like a suburban subway, arrive at station, tap and hop on any random GOTrain going in a direction) -- then achieving the "RER" goal should be doable within a generation. The Union revitalization (look at all that GO square footage! Triple size.) is a blatant assertion of strong intent of future huge major GO expansion, and tomorrow's politicians of all stripes have been handed a strong incentive to continue to take advantage of capacity potential. Yes, bickering will continue, and it is easy to be cynical when Toronto transit improvements has been terrible, but for some GOTransit users (especially along Lakeshore), the improvements have been quite stunning for us already turning the Lakeshore line into a low-frequency surface subway. Lakeshore residents suddenly got an almost-SmartTrack convenience in 2013 on Lakeshore when all-day service tap-at-gate-and-hop-on (7-day all-day 30min offpeak, 15min during peak today) and overnight brought in ~30% more commuters! I wonder why doesn't TTC improve as rapidly as GOTransit? On some routes, GO has been improving hugely massively, unbeknownst to people like you, whom has never taken GO. If they keep up, Paris RER is doable in a single generation from now! Of course, you know with Amalgamated Toronto, it's hard to get things done, but if SmartTrack succeeds, then the momentum keeps pushing GO RER along.

I did not say we'll get RER today, but we'll get RER tomorrow. There is stunning massive momentum behind GO network improvements and signal from the City & Queens show that the momentum is only becoming a little faster (see: SmartTrack, a GO idea that John Tory is accelerating). In the last few years, GO commuter growth rate currently far outstrips TTC commuter growth rate by a multiple of several times, far more GO stops added than TTC stops in the last few years, and there's more interesting GO initatives already budgetted/funded than TTC initiatives. If this pace keeps, the RER feel will arrive in a generation.

So what is your point, ksun?

 

[salsa]

Sorry Salsa, could you speak up? It didn't quite hear what you were saying.

Actually I did get what you were saying but I choose to ignore it but make sure you get back to us when you have something intelligent to say.

I still stand by what I said. If GO was to run higher frequencies {which eventually would require electrification} with all day service, with no extra fare required except your TTC pass then voila..........a SmartTrack system.

If the TTC/Metrolinx/GO stopped bickering amongst themselves and acting like they were running fiefdoms instead of transit systems then maybe Torontonians would be stuck with the transit system it currently has. It requires a change in mentality at those 3 agencies and telling them that how I get to where I'm going is NONE of their business.

Tell me, why should someone coming from Sheppard have to take the bus to the SRT, transfer to the SRT, transfer at the subway, transfer at another, and transfer to a streetcar just to get to Queen's Quay when there is one rail line that will take them all the way there if they can afford it? You are not getting charged for the distance you travel but rather for the technology you use to get there............absurd.

If you are travelling within the City of Toronto then you should pay the same fare. Paying more for one method based on the fact that is runs on a different type of rail track is ridiculous. It's like charging someone more if their electricity comes from an underground connection as opposed to an overhead pole.

This what Paris' RER is based on..............we don't care how you get there, our job is to just get you there as quickly and efficiently as possible and whether you choose Metro or RER is up to you.

I don't disagree with any of that. The existing situation you described is about as stupid as the extra fare that you have to pay just because the bus crossed that ugly street called Steeles. But that's not what prompted my comment. It wan't the most intelligent way to say it, but my point was you like to make certain claims such as "SmartTrack unlike GO RER will be a strictly TTC service with TTC fares", and no matter how many times other posters have refuted that over the past few months, you still pretend that that's true. Once again, NO it will not be a TTC service, and the fare system will be completely revamped anyway as soon as presto and fare integration is implemented, as was explained again in several posts yesterday. Please be more open minded.

 

[TOareaFan]

Discussed today at Queens Park

http://www.thestar.com/news/city_ha...dy_part_of_ontario_rail_plans_wynne_says.html

 

[ehlow]

Discussed today at Queens Park

http://www.thestar.com/news/city_ha...dy_part_of_ontario_rail_plans_wynne_says.html

Hallelujah