SmartTrack (Proposed)

[canarob]

10 crossings south of Unionville, so likely around $150 million to completely grade separate that part of the line. 7 additional at grade crossings to Mount Joy, probably another $150 million given that they are much more complicated separations. (Rivers, close to historic buildings, etc.)

Very precise, thanks. Certainly no small task if combined with a widening of the corridor.

 

[ssiguy2]

SmartTrack is very similar to GO RER with one glaring exception...............ST will be part of the standard TTC fare structure. GO RER is a great leap forward but will still be predominately a 905 service due to the much higher fares even after complete fare integration.

 

[salsa]

SmartTrack is very similar to GO RER with one glaring exception...............ST will be part of the standard TTC fare structure.

No it won't. Actually, why can't you wait to see what Metrolinx will say about that. You seem to think that everything John Tory says will happen in real life.

 

[CDL.TO]

SmartTrack is very similar to GO RER with one glaring exception...............ST will be part of the standard TTC fare structure. GO RER is a great leap forward but will still be predominately a 905 service due to the much higher fares even after complete fare integration.

What do you think "complete fare integration" means?

 

[RyanM12]

Well here's what I hope fare integration looks like:
Old city of Toronto, york & east york become fare zone 1.
North york, Scarborough & Etobicoke become fare zone 2.
York region, durham & peel become fare zone 3.
The outer regions (Simcoe, Halton, etc) can become fare zone 4.

Lower the price for one zone travel to $2. Two zone travel is $3. Three zone travel is $4, four zone travel is $5. This would apply to all modes of transit.

By making two zone travel $3, Scarborough Etobicoke and north York won't get shafted (their normal commute downtown won't increase in price).

 

[muller877]

What do you think "complete fare integration" means?

Simple...to make this work there will be fare integration. You just may not think its fair.

All of the TTC will be subject to the same rules. Distance based fares, low/mid/rush premiums, etc. Then there is true fare integration!

Which I think is fair. If I decide to get downtown at 8 and read the newspaper and have a coffee for 1/2 hr before I start work I should pay less for the subway compared to someone who tries to get downtown for 8:30 or 9 when everything is at capacity.

If I decide to live 5km from work I should not have to pay as much as someone who is living 15 km from work.

....if people are worried about the less well off I agree there should be a mechanism for a rebate but this should not impact the base price of a ticket which everyone else uses (i.e. not showing up on the TTC budget). Working poor could be subsidized from home to work. Students could be subsidized home to school only (and not other routes). Unemployed/Seniors could be subsidized on distance but would not get a discount for the rush hour.

Good example will be Ossington Stn to St Andrew Stn. 5 km in total. Normal price will be $1 flat fee plus $0.15/km plus $0.25 for 1 transfer. Totals $2.00. Rush hour (AM based on when you tap off the system, PM is based on when you tap on) would cost $2.50 plus $0.25/km plus $0.25 for 1 transfer. Totals $4.00.

But if you live in King West (2.5 km) it would cost $1.40 and $3.10 respectively (I would walk in rush-hour which is the intended result).

If you live a decent way out (Weston...17km) it would cost $3.55 on SmartTrack with no tranfer. If you wanted to take the subway 1 stop you would have to fork out $0.25 (or if you took the bus/subway). Rush hour would cost more but not double...$6.75. Current price on GO (with Presto) is $4.80.

Ideally GO, TTC, MiWay, etc all implement the same rate card. And the $$$ need to be analyzed to confirm that system-wide there should be no change in the subsidy (up or down). There may be shifts from one transit system to another but that can be worked out via how they divide up the base fare (the $1 or $2.50...which a portion of which is used to fund Presto)

 

[RyanM12]

Just make it $1 per 10km.

 

[robmausser]

While Smarttrack will probably get absorbed into GO RER, there are many points that it does bring up which will positively affect RER for the people in the 416.

A lot of people here are transit gurus but don't understand how politics work. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, and every part of the province is vying for their piece of the pie.

What Smarttrack will do, EVEN if it is absorbed into RER is ensure that RER services the 416 as much as it does the 905. This means:

1. Complete fare integration with the TTC. (within the 416 areas)
2. Ensuring the trains have enough capacity to handle the downtown core areas.
3. More stations in the downtown core.
4. Ensuring the rolling stock used has the proper acceleration to handle downtown stations closely lumped together (so single level EMU's vs bilevels being pulled by an electric locomotive)
5. Prioritize the Kitchener Line and Stouffville line as the first areas to get electrification (Metrolinx would probably choose the Lakeshore Lines otherwise)

Even if its a political ideal, it will change RER for the better. It will help focus it to what RER is supposed to be.

As long as we get rid of that Eglinton Sub and replace it will the Crosstown extension. Thats the only part of Smarttrack which doesnt make sense.

 

[jcam]

There was never any doubt..

And the Eglinton stretch will be absorbed into the Crosstown western Phase 2.

 

[gweed123]

Regarding TTC fare, I honestly think that the flat fare needs to go. There's no reason why someone taking the subway for 5 stops has to pay the same fare as someone getting on at the very end of the line and going to that same spot.

The system that I think would work best is the following: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43869799/GTA System Map - To Scale - Version 2.pdf
Please note that the map itself is outdated from what I'm working on now, but the fare zones would remain the same.

The basic premise is that you have fare zones that are roughly 6km x 6km, with a few deviations in order to make inter-fare zone travel easier. The base fare is $2.50, and that covers 2 zones (~12km trip). Any additional zone beyond that is $1 per zone in the urban area, while the rural area is variable fare depending on distance (to places like Kitchener and Niagara Falls).

I've tried to make RT lines form a fare zone boundary as much as possible, because for this system that means that they're in 2 fare zones simultaneously. For example the Yonge Subway: bus from York Mills & Bayview to the Yonge Subway, subway to St. Clair would still only be 1 fare zone.

Some common trips under this setup:

Eglinton to Downtown: $2.50 (2 zones)
STC to Downtown: $3.50 (3 zones, $2.50 base fare + $1 extra zone)
Vaughan Centre to Downtown: $4.50 (4 zones)
Square One to Downtown Brampton: $3.50 (3 zones)
Burlington to Downtown: $9.50 (9 zones)
Oshawa to Union: $7.50 (7 zones)

 

[flyinggoats]

SmartTrack is very similar to GO RER with one glaring exception...............ST will be part of the standard TTC fare structure. GO RER is a great leap forward but will still be predominately a 905 service due to the much higher fares even after complete fare integration.

According to Tory, SmartTrack is a subset of GO RER. "SmartTrack is a part of the Regional Express Rail" - http://globalnews.ca/video/1663711/...and-ttc-alreading-working-on-smarttrack-plan/

 

[smably]

My hope is that Tory, in a fit of pragmatism, splits SmartTrack into phases and focuses on getting phase 1 done in seven years... where phase 1 just happens to encompass the part that is common to Metrolinx RER plans. Thus the problematic Eglinton leg can be pushed off far enough into the future that it can be re-engineered into something that actually makes sense.

 

[gweed123]

My hope is that Tory, in a fit of pragmatism, splits SmartTrack into phases and focuses on getting phase 1 done in seven years... where phase 1 just happens to encompass the part that is common to Metrolinx RER plans. Thus the problematic Eglinton leg can be pushed off far enough into the future that it can be re-engineered into something that actually makes sense.

My hope is that the common parts of SmartTrack and the GO RER plan do get completed within the 7 years, as you mention. Run all GO services into Union during that period. While that is under construction, begin the planning for a GO RER tunnel under downtown. Once that's completed, the Toronto-centric SmartTrack can be shifted to using that tunnel, and GO could boost 905-centric services into Union.

SmartTrack (minus the Eglinton West section) is a great starting point for an RER network. However, it shouldn't be the end goal.

 

[Palma]

Well here's what I hope fare integration looks like:
Old city of Toronto, york & east york become fare zone 1.
North york, Scarborough & Etobicoke become fare zone 2.
York region, durham & peel become fare zone 3.
The outer regions (Simcoe, Halton, etc) can become fare zone 4.

Lower the price for one zone travel to $2. Two zone travel is $3. Three zone travel is $4, four zone travel is $5. This would apply to all modes of transit.

By making two zone travel $3, Scarborough Etobicoke and north York won't get shafted (their normal commute downtown won't increase in price).

Sounds great to me.

 

[salsa]

I still maintain that GO RER will absorb Smart-Track, even the people behind the Smart-Track plan sort of planned for that to occur.

For now, the BS will not end anytime soon

There is nothing that causes me to change the timeline, which is seven years, and to change the intention we have to build without increasing property taxes and to use other means to finance the construction of SmartTrack.

There has thus far, he said, been no “significant debate†about the viability of using Tax Increment Financing as a tool for raising the necessary money.