SmartTrack (Proposed)

[rbt]

And because he borrowed the GO RER plan and called it Smart Track, Toronto now has to pay 1/3rd of the cost.

The province hasn't asked for a bill yet.

However, I speculate that Toronto's portion of the Danforth extension will instead be used to build/improve 416 Smart Track stations including a half-dozen in Scarborough.

I don't think Tory will be able to find substantial capital funds in Toronto's budget without a substantial property tax increase. I'm not sure he can sell that. Operating subsidy on the order of $50M/year will be fairly easy to find.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Tory won't be able to find the capital without a tax increase. The Scarbrough Subway has maxed out our debt limit.

A $50 Million/year operating subsidy is a substantial amount of money. "Easy to find" is somewhat of an exaggeration

 

[gweed123]

Gotta love politics. People still think Tory actually promised to do something. Brilliant strategy for future mayor candidates to mimic.

I'd rather have him doing that than drawing his own completely different plan on the back of a napkin and derailing already-in-progress plans. At least this way GO RER continues unimpeded, and it may just get a few upgrades too.

The province hasn't asked for a bill yet.

However, I speculate that Toronto's portion of the Danforth extension will instead be used to build/improve 416 Smart Track stations including a half-dozen in Scarborough.

I don't think Tory will be able to find substantial capital funds in Toronto's budget without a substantial property tax increase. I'm not sure he can sell that. Operating subsidy on the order of $50M/year will be fairly easy to find.

I suspect that the deal that will be struck is that Metrolinx pays for upgrading all existing 416 and 905 rail corridors, while Toronto pays for the Central Tunnel (aka DRL) to divert SmartTrack away from Union and allow for more local stop spacing in and around downtown. Coincidentally, the downtown core and the shoulders of downtown are one of the few places where a TIF, if designed properly, is bound to work, given the amount of construction taking place there.

 

[TOareaFan]

I'd rather have him doing that than drawing his own completely different plan on the back of a napkin and derailing already-in-progress plans. At least this way GO RER continues unimpeded, and it may just get a few upgrades too.



I suspect that the deal that will be struck is that Metrolinx pays for upgrading all existing 416 and 905 rail corridors, while Toronto pays for the Central Tunnel (aka DRL) to divert SmartTrack away from Union and allow for more local stop spacing in and around downtown. Coincidentally, the downtown core and the shoulders of downtown are one of the few places where a TIF, if designed properly, is bound to work, given the amount of construction taking place there.

If I understand TIF proprerly (no guarantee there) it captures the increase in value on properties where that value is shown to be a result of the tax expenditure (in this case, transit).....the amount of development already taking place in Toronto's core (both condo and office) would show that the development and increasing values are/would happen with or without transit investment (as they are now)....it would see to me that TIF would work (if anywhere) in the exact opposite type of location....ie where there is limited increased development or land values until the taxpayer investment happens.

 

[gweed123]

If I understand TIF proprerly (no guarantee there) it captures the increase in value on properties where that value is shown to be a result of the tax expenditure (in this case, transit).....the amount of development already taking place in Toronto's core (both condo and office) would show that the development and increasing values are/would happen with or without transit investment (as they are now)....it would see to me that TIF would work (if anywhere) in the exact opposite type of location....ie where there is limited increased development or land values until the taxpayer investment happens.

Your point is valid. However, whether the increase would happen with or without the transit improvement is immaterial in this case. The point is you're getting a virtually guaranteed increase in the TIF area. A blighted area that receives transit infrastructure funded through a TIF may not experience as much re-gentrification as expected, and thus revenues may fall well short of their targets. In this case, you have an almost guaranteed winner, which makes it a much safer bet as far as a TIF is concerned.

 

[TOareaFan]

Your point is valid. However, whether the increase would happen with or without the transit improvement is immaterial in this case. The point is you're getting a virtually guaranteed increase in the TIF area. A blighted area that receives transit infrastructure funded through a TIF may not experience as much re-gentrification as expected, and thus revenues may fall well short of their targets. In this case, you have an almost guaranteed winner, which makes it a much safer bet as far as a TIF is concerned.

Again, I am no expert on TIF, but wouldn't it be difficult to prove/show how much of the lift in value was due to the TIF funded project(s)?

 

[gweed123]

Again, I am no expert on TIF, but wouldn't it be difficult to prove/show how much of the lift in value was due to the TIF funded project(s)?

I don't think you need to prove that the increase in value was specifically because of the transit project. I think it can be set up in such a way that any future increase in value over the pre-determined period, or a percentage of the increase, can go towards the TIF fund. I will admit though, I'm no expert in TIFs either, that's just my interpretation of it.

 

[crs1026]

So - how are Montreal's dual-power locomotives performing, anyways? Electric to Brampton, diesel beyond.....hmmm

- Paul

 

[rbt]

I'd rather have him doing that than drawing his own completely different plan on the back of a napkin and derailing already-in-progress plans. At least this way GO RER continues unimpeded, and it may just get a few upgrades too.

Yes. I voted for him for that reason; he was the only candidate that wasn't going to attempt to kill GO RER (again, a promise to not do something).

I just find it amusing how few voters seem to realize what his promise really was, particularly when it was so close to the provincial election which was heavily transit oriented.

I suspect that the deal that will be struck is that Metrolinx pays for upgrading all existing 416 and 905 rail corridors, while Toronto pays for the Central Tunnel (aka DRL) to divert SmartTrack away from Union and allow for more local stop spacing in and around downtown. Coincidentally, the downtown core and the shoulders of downtown are one of the few places where a TIF, if designed properly, is bound to work, given the amount of construction taking place there.

Perhaps. On the surface that appears doable, particularly if the tunnel is in the long-term horizon (out 15 to 20 years).

 

[cplchanb]

Tory won't be able to find the capital without a tax increase. The Scarbrough Subway has maxed out our debt limit.

A $50 Million/year operating subsidy is a substantial amount of money. "Easy to find" is somewhat of an exaggeration

Fare hike. Even a modest 50C increase to base fares can gain hundreds of millions of dollars since ridership is already at an all time high.
Tolling parts of the DVP, even just the gardiner can also net millions annually. It all depends on if Tory and TTC have a spine to introduce and sell the idea.

 

[44 North]

In response to some of the comments about TIF and increases in downtown land values; we should keep in mind that an area like Unilever and Lower Don Lands will be increasing tremendously in value with the completion of the renaturalized Don river mouth. As it currently stands, the land cannot be insured as high-density residential/commercial because of the flood risk (or it can be, but it'd be costly). Once the river mouth is complete, I think it's a guarantee that there will be a major boost in land values. Just like with the flood-protection berm in the West Don Lands. Although I'm not sure about this, I think it may be a reason Unilever was specifically ID'd for TIF.

 

[nfitz]

So - how are Montreal's dual-power locomotives performing, anyways? Electric to Brampton, diesel beyond.....hmmm

Seems rather unnecessary to go the trouble of dual-mode locomotives if they would just run on diesel all the way in.

Montreal went for dual-mode because they can't run diesel through the Mount Royal tunnel, and they didn't want to spend the money to electrify 43 km of track.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I think they will be electrifying to Kitchener. Dual modes will probably be used for Niagara, Stouffville, Cambridge, and possibly Bowmanville.

 

[nfitz]

I think they will be electrifying to Kitchener. Dual modes will probably be used for Niagara, Stouffville, Cambridge, and possibly Bowmanville.

Why would you ever run dual modes, when you can simply run diesel?

I don't think they'd electrify anwhere that won't RER service. I can't imagine that electrification would run past Georgetown.

 

[Palma]

The province hasn't asked for a bill yet.

However, I speculate that Toronto's portion of the Danforth extension will instead be used to build/improve 416 Smart Track stations including a half-dozen in Scarborough.

I don't think Tory will be able to find substantial capital funds in Toronto's budget without a substantial property tax increase. I'm not sure he can sell that. Operating subsidy on the order of $50M/year will be fairly easy to find.

Yet its easy to increase waste disposal fees substantially. And where is that money going other than to GFL