SmartTrack (Proposed)

[gibsonm]

SmartTrack? Sensible and Cost Effective? ye no. Smart Track at best is a pointless and redundant project which would basically be better served by GO RER (which it will be).

Uh no. GO is an expensive commuter rail system that mostly serves suburban residents. Without TTC fare integration, GO RER will just be a more frequent version of the same expensive commuter rail system. Until I see a commitment that all GO RER stations within Toronto have complete fare integration with the TTC system, I just see it as a money pit. Metrolinx (GO) continues to work siloed from the TTC.

Moreover, fare integration should continue well beyond Toronto's borders. We still don't seem to be able to do fare integration in the GTA. All the transit systems in Peel, York, Toronto, and Durham should ultimately be amalgamated and eventually distance-based fares should be introduced. Until that happens (unlikely in the next 20 years), I'll take TTC fares for GO train travel in Toronto. Smarttrack is the only heavy rail project that supports that currently.

 

[Coolstar]

Uh no. GO is an expensive commuter rail system that mostly serves suburban residents. Without TTC fare integration, GO RER will just be a more frequent version of same.

Just because SmartTrack isn't moving forward doesn't mean the plan for fare integration ends. Metrolinx is still studying fare integration albeit at a frustratingly slow pace.

 

[robmausser]

Just because SmartTrack isn't moving forward doesn't mean the plan for fare integration ends.

Also, just because TTC subway extensions are moving forward doesn't mean that fare-by-zones on the TTC subway isn't coming.

 

[Undead]

^I think studies are a way to delay doing anything until there's funding.

 

[ARG1]

Uh no. GO is an expensive commuter rail system that mostly serves suburban residents. Without TTC fare integration, GO RER will just be a more frequent version of the same expensive commuter rail system. Until I see a commitment that all GO RER stations within Toronto have complete fare integration with the TTC system, I just see it as a money pit. Metrolinx (GO) continues to work siloed from the TTC.

GO RER will fail if fare integration isn't implemented, with or without SmartTrack. Lack of fare integration isn't an argument.

 

[gibsonm]

GO RER will fail if fare integration isn't implemented, with or without SmartTrack. Lack of fare integration isn't an argument.

I don't see fare integration coming without amalgamation of transit systems run by a single body. The problem is that Metrolinx is running a huge regional train network but doesn't have the fine-grained experience of running a city network like the TTC has. Ultimately those agencies will have to merge. A distance/zone-based system will need to be introduced, but if GO RER continues to be an expensive commuter rail system without added stations downtown and free transfer locally, say within about a 25 kilometre radius, then what do we have?

 

[robmausser]

I don't see fare integration coming without amalgamation of transit systems run by a single body.

I fail to see how this is accurate when almost every other local transit system within the GTA other than the TTC offers some kind of fare integration with GO already, and where the TTC and GO had half fares in 2017-2019. Clearly its possible.

 

[gibsonm]

I fail to see how this is accurate when almost every other local transit system within the GTA other than the TTC offers some kind of fare integration with GO already, and where the TTC and GO had half fares in 2017-2019. Clearly its possible.

Ford canceled the $1.50 discount for TTC-GO transfer. Possible is not probable. I'm saying all these things because ultimately I want to see a really comprehensive, integrated network, but when different cities and the province are spending so much time and money building their own empires with different rules for different jurisdictions, it's hard to imagine fare integration and zones on the scale of London, England. We have to start planning on that level because our population will warrant it quite soon. You think London bothers with a MiWay or Viva?

 

[ssiguy2]

Uh no. GO is an expensive commuter rail system that mostly serves suburban residents. Without TTC fare integration, GO RER will just be a more frequent version of the same expensive commuter rail system. Until I see a commitment that all GO RER stations within Toronto have complete fare integration with the TTC system, I just see it as a money pit. Metrolinx (GO) continues to work siloed from the TTC.

Moreover, fare integration should continue well beyond Toronto's borders. We still don't seem to be able to do fare integration in the GTA. All the transit systems in Peel, York, Toronto, and Durham should ultimately be amalgamated and eventually distance-based fares should be introduced. Until that happens (unlikely in the next 20 years), I'll take TTC fares for GO train travel in Toronto. Smarttrack is the only heavy rail project that supports that currently.

BINGO!

RER has the ability to be the most transformative rapid transit expansion since 1970 when the subways were built. It has the potential to literally move millions of Torontonians in the future and could easily match or even succeed current subway ridership which is the case in many cities worldwide that have RER type systems like Paris, Milan, and Berlin. The high frequency {ie every 5 minutes all day} must be there but even more importantly the fares must be the same as regular transit. If so, Toronto has effectively expanded it's subway by 200 km at a mere fraction of the time and cost of standard underground subway and if not, Metrolinx has built nothing more than a commuter rail system that millions won't be able to afford to take.

 

[micheal_can]

SmartTrack? Sensible and Cost Effective? ye no. Smart Track at best is a pointless and redundant project which would basically be better served by GO RER (which it will be).

Uh no. GO is an expensive commuter rail system that mostly serves suburban residents. Without TTC fare integration, GO RER will just be a more frequent version of the same expensive commuter rail system. Until I see a commitment that all GO RER stations within Toronto have complete fare integration with the TTC system, I just see it as a money pit. Metrolinx (GO) continues to work siloed from the TTC.

Moreover, fare integration should continue well beyond Toronto's borders. We still don't seem to be able to do fare integration in the GTA. All the transit systems in Peel, York, Toronto, and Durham should ultimately be amalgamated and eventually distance-based fares should be introduced. Until that happens (unlikely in the next 20 years), I'll take TTC fares for GO train travel in Toronto. Smarttrack is the only heavy rail project that supports that currently.

Could this be the initial GO RER, but with fare integration?

 

[Coolstar]

BINGO!

RER has the ability to be the most transformative rapid transit expansion since 1970 when the subways were built. It has the potential to literally move millions of Torontonians in the future and could easily match or even succeed current subway ridership which is the case in many cities worldwide that have RER type systems like Paris, Milan, and Berlin. The high frequency {ie every 5 minutes all day} must be there but even more importantly the fares must be the same as regular transit. If so, Toronto has effectively expanded it's subway by 200 km at a mere fraction of the time and cost of standard underground subway and if not, Metrolinx has built nothing more than a commuter rail system that millions won't be able to afford to take.

SEPTA Regional Rail is a good example of exactly that. The infrastructure is all there but lack of fare integration, frequencies or even the lack of through-run service holds it back.

 

[Rainforest]

SmartTrack is a good idea, just a terribly executed one. Or you can say, not executed at all.

 

[robmausser]

SmartTrack is a good idea, just a terribly executed one. Or you can say, not executed at all.

TBH as long as the incorperated Smarttrack stations (Liberty Village, St.Clair, Finch East, etc) do go ahead as planned, (and currently funded by the city and feds) and there is fare integration with the TTC on some level (even if its 50% off) and 8 minute frequencies on peak as planned with RER, its "good enough" imo.

 

[TossYourJacket]

I don't see fare integration coming without amalgamation of transit systems run by a single body. The problem is that Metrolinx is running a huge regional train network but doesn't have the fine-grained experience of running a city network like the TTC has. Ultimately those agencies will have to merge. A distance/zone-based system will need to be introduced, but if GO RER continues to be an expensive commuter rail system without added stations downtown and free transfer locally, say within about a 25 kilometre radius, then what do we have?

Metrolinx is also blatantly a puppet of the provincial government at this point (both under the Liberals and the Conservatives), even though it claims to be arm-length from the Ministry of Transportation. While there certainly advantages to having a regional transit authority, Metrolinx would need to be substantially reformed, and it's independence from the provincial government would need to be guaranteed under law. None of that is likely any time soon. If we were to have a regional transit authority, it should be responsible to the elected governments and the voters of the GTA, not the overall province of Ontario.

it's hard to imagine fare integration and zones on the scale of London, England. We have to start planning on that level because our population will warrant it quite soon. You think London bothers with a MiWay or Viva?

The bigger problem here is that unlike the GTA, London actually has metropolitan-level governance (in that while there are elected governments for various boroughs, there is also an elected government for all of metropolitan London). With the way our government is set up now, we either get individual cities running transit, or it's run by a province that has concerns (and most notably voting constituencies) beyond the GTA. If we want some kind of TFL-esque system, we'd most likely need some sort of government that's either a full metro government like London, or something more like metro Vancouver's mayor's council first.

 

[kEiThZ]

Metrolinx is also blatantly a puppet of the provincial government at this point (both under the Liberals and the Conservatives), even though it claims to be arm-length from the Ministry of Transportation. While there certainly advantages to having a regional transit authority, Metrolinx would need to be substantially reformed, and it's independence from the provincial government would need to be guaranteed under law. None of that is likely any time soon. If we were to have a regional transit authority, it should be responsible to the elected governments and the voters of the GTA, not the overall province of Ontario.

With Doug Ford's penchant for meddling in regional governance, I'm always surprised he didn't consider simply ordering Metrolinx to take over all GTA transit.