SmartTrack (Proposed)

[H4F33Z]

Anyone know the plan for these cross-regional BRT's for fares when I cross region borders?

 

[micheal_can]

Reading all of this, its sad that the biggest thing holding back a lot of transit progress is the actual implementation of service agreements, not capital costs.

Things like proper fare integration, bus feeder service levels, priority signaling (RIP Crosstown East), even automated trains (SRT hello) are all affordable and smart ways to deal with transit expansion, but they all require a level of bureaucracy that apparently Ontario politicians are either to inept to deal with, or would rather have their names and legacy attached to capital cost projects.

The only solutions seem to ever be highly expensive, capital costs works that take decades to build.

"Fare integration so people in Toronto can ride a subway-like electric GO train? Heck no we aren't giving them a free ride! Oh btw heres $6 billion for a subway to the suburbs. Just make sure my name is attached to it."

And then people complain about the high cost of transit construction. Fire a bunch of useless bureaucrats and you would save millions.

I think to avoid distraction from building RER, GO network expansion, subways, LRT's, etc, it's probably best to maintain existing transit organizations and governance structures until all currently planned projects are substantially underway, somewhere around five years from now, at which point they should be folded into Metrolinx and fares should be integrated and distance-based for the whole GTA, if not for the GTHA or Greater Golden Horseshoe.

Municipalities could still decide how much they wish to dial up tax contributions to supplement their sections of the network, but Metrolinx should also have a predictable consistent revenue source for regional priorities. Essentially the existing municipal transit organizations become branch plants of the regional organization. Some minor political handling of Metrolinx by the province is unavoidable because the tax revenue that supports the agency and major transit projects will continue to be ballot issues at the provincial and municipal levels. However, no major transit projects should be cancelled before an election that puts cancellation on the platform. This should be legislated. We need long-term regional planning that transcends changes in government, with predictable funding.

Oh, so you mean the mess of the Hurontario LRT is a good thing?
Or the Big Move/Transit City/Move 2020 being canceled being a good thing?

Metrolinx should be the de-facto transit agency for the GTA, or any other city that is served by a GO train. Transit should be removed from politics once and for all. The GTA keeps showing that politicians are the worst people at doing anything transit related.

 

[anb]

Everyone is hating on these projects, but in 5 years would be praising it. That’s the state that we’re in with the province

 

[micheal_can]

Everyone is hating on these projects, but in 5 years would be praising it. That’s the state that we’re in with the province

They are praising anything because nothing is the normal.

 

[MrGoose]

And then people complain about the high cost of transit construction. Fire a bunch of useless bureaucrats and you would save millions.



Oh, so you mean the mess of the Hurontario LRT is a good thing?
Or the Big Move/Transit City/Move 2020 being canceled being a good thing?

Metrolinx should be the de-facto transit agency for the GTA, or any other city that is served by a GO train. Transit should be removed from politics once and for all. The GTA keeps showing that politicians are the worst people at doing anything transit related.

Hmm, in case of future expansions, you might meet resistance if say GO wanted to expand service to Brantford (Hamilton Commuter Line) or London or Peterborough and that meant the small town would "get sucked up by those fat cats at MetroLinx in Toronto"

 

[44 North]

The same reason the subways and SRT are not run without drivers.

Why you always going on about Line 3 having drivers. Last I checked it was driverless for the past 35yrs. So it's manned with someone doing the doors. Big whoop. Some cities like having staffed trains. It's not like there's untold $Billions waiting to be tapped by removing them. Maybe come down from Sudbury one day and actually ride the TTC instead of whining about it.

 

[TossYourJacket]

Metrolinx should be the de-facto transit agency for the GTA, or any other city that is served by a GO train. Transit should be removed from politics once and for all. The GTA keeps showing that politicians are the worst people at doing anything transit related.

Agreed on getting politicians out of transit, but sadly Metrolinx is the biggest political puppet of any transit agency right now. They can't even put out a press release without being forced to run it by the Minister of Transportation. Until there is something that guarantees the arms-length relationship Metrolinx was supposed to have to the government when it was created, it will be constantly used by politicians to serve their objectives.

 

[micheal_can]

Hmm, in case of future expansions, you might meet resistance if say GO wanted to expand service to Brantford (Hamilton Commuter Line) or London or Peterborough and that meant the small town would "get sucked up by those fat cats at MetroLinx in Toronto"

The small town? Do you mean the cities? Funny thing is, when Durham took over transit, at first they imply left all the lines and operating characteristics for the municipalities as is. Things have since been changed such that it is overall better. One could think that if Durham Transit, for example, was taken over by Metrolinx, then over time, the residents could see better service.

Why you always going on about Line 3 having drivers. Last I checked it was driverless for the past 35yrs. So it's manned with someone doing the doors. Big whoop. Some cities like having staffed trains. It's not like there's untold $Billions waiting to be tapped by removing them. Maybe come down from Sudbury one day and actually ride the TTC instead of whining about it.

Actually, when I visit Toronto, I park and ride the TTC. Traffic annoys me, and with my full size truck, parking in the core is not fun.
Operatorless. There, a better word. If it was all controlled as it was designed, with no one operating any part of the train locally, I would back down. Right now, you are paying for that worker's wage. That money could be spent elsewhere in the system. So, get rid of all local operations and I will no longer bring it up.

Agreed on getting politicians out of transit, but sadly Metrolinx is the biggest political puppet of any transit agency right now. They can't even put out a press release without being forced to run it by the Minister of Transportation. Until there is something that guarantees the arms-length relationship Metrolinx was supposed to have to the government when it was created, it will be constantly used by politicians to serve their objectives.

The first step would be to make it an arms length organization. There can be one major organization that is arms length, but we need to start somewhere.

 

[Towered]

2021 marks 7 years since John Tory got elected on the promise of getting SmartTrack built in 7 years.

Where is it?

 

[robmausser]

2021 marks 7 years since John Tory got elected on the promise of getting SmartTrack built in 7 years.

Where is it?

People love to rag on JT for this but really the same can be said for any mayor.

Wheres Rob's Scarborough subway? Wheres Millers Transit City?

All plans have been twisted, modified, shrunk, delayed.

Transit city is a shell of its former self, and several years late.

And same with Smarttrack, just a bunch of extra GO-RER stations we will probably see in 2026 at the earliest.

 

[ssiguy2]

When RER finally gets going and IF they bring in complete fare integration, I think you will find an increasing disparity in services between GO Commuter and GO RER.

As RER is up and running I can see GO dropping all of it's Toronto commuter stops except those at subway interchanges. I can also see them dropping many suburban city stops like Port Credit and Clarkson. GO will increasing be for strictly long distance commuters from Ham/Guelph/KW/Barrie/Osh and RER will serve inner suburb/city riders. Anyone going from Hamilton to Mimino would have to transfer onto a RER train. Eventually I think GO commuter, except for specific stations like Downsview, Woodbine, Dundas West, and Union basically disappearing from the Toronto and inner suburbs landscape.

Not only would this make RER a far superior return on investment as ridership would soar but also greatly reduce the travel times from the outer commuter areas like Ham/KW/Barrie as they would basically become, within 30 km of Union, express trains.

 

[kEiThZ]

And same with Smarttrack, just a bunch of extra GO-RER stations we will probably see in 2026 at the earliest.

I said a while back that if all Smart Track accomplished was improved service, station spacing and GO integration, I would count the job done. And it increasingly looks like RER is heading that way.

 

[robmausser]

When RER finally gets going and IF they bring in complete fare integration, I think you will find an increasing disparity in services between GO Commuter and GO RER.

As RER is up and running I can see GO dropping all of it's Toronto commuter stops except those at subway interchanges. I can also see them dropping many suburban city stops like Port Credit and Clarkson. GO will increasing be for strictly long distance commuters from Ham/Guelph/KW/Barrie/Osh and RER will serve inner suburb/city riders. Anyone going from Hamilton to Mimino would have to transfer onto a RER train. Eventually I think GO commuter, except for specific stations like Downsview, Woodbine, Dundas West, and Union basically disappearing from the Toronto and inner suburbs landscape.

Not only would this make RER a far superior return on investment as ridership would soar but also greatly reduce the travel times from the outer commuter areas like Ham/KW/Barrie as they would basically become, within 30 km of Union, express trains.

I believe this is the case, and looks feasible, with the exception being Stouffville.

Already on Lakeshore and Kitchener Lines they are running express trains that bypass the downtown stations. So we know thats a given. It will just be the norm not the exception.

Barrie has two tracks on the diamond overpass, but theres room in most of the corridor for 3 tracks. It can be managed.

Stouffville though? With the SRT gone there are long sections to create a third passing track, but then there are long sections from Ellesemere to Milliken where it looks like 2 tracks is all that will fit.

So it will be tight.

Perhaps Stouffville will not bypass as many stations as the others.

However, since they are planning to electrify the entire line, I could see the line using double decker EMU's all the way out to Lincolnville. They have quick acceleration profiles, so they can make up for lost time stopping at more stations.

Honestly it wouldnt be that bad though, looking at the map.

From Union to Kennedy, thats technically the Lakeshore Line, so that can all be bypassed, there will be the track space for express service.

I expect Lawrence-Kennedy to get the chopping block, due to the Scarborough Subway now having a Lawrence station. So thats gone.

Agincourt to Milliken will be the difficult area, where fitting in a 3rd track will be tight.

That being said, already express from Kennedy to downtown will be significant time savings.

 

[Haydenpoon]

I believe this is the case, and looks feasible, with the exception being Stouffville.

Already on Lakeshore and Kitchener Lines they are running express trains that bypass the downtown stations. So we know thats a given. It will just be the norm not the exception.

Barrie has two tracks on the diamond overpass, but theres room in most of the corridor for 3 tracks. It can be managed.

Stouffville though? With the SRT gone there are long sections to create a third passing track, but then there are long sections from Ellesemere to Milliken where it looks like 2 tracks is all that will fit.

So it will be tight.

Perhaps Stouffville will not bypass as many stations as the others.

However, since they are planning to electrify the entire line, I could see the line using double decker EMU's all the way out to Lincolnville. They have quick acceleration profiles, so they can make up for lost time stopping at more stations.

Honestly it wouldnt be that bad though, looking at the map.

View attachment 291750

From Union to Kennedy, thats technically the Lakeshore Line, so that can all be bypassed, there will be the track space for express service.

I expect Lawrence-Kennedy to get the chopping block, due to the Scarborough Subway now having a Lawrence station. So thats gone.

Agincourt to Milliken will be the difficult area, where fitting in a 3rd track will be tight.

That being said, already express from Kennedy to downtown will be significant time savings.

Strategically putting 3rd and 4th tracks at where the train actually overtakes another are better than merely quad tracking the whole line. For the express train to overtake the local train, the local train just needs to travel slower from Ellesmere to Kennedy, which means it might actually better to put stations at Ellesmere and Lawrence with passing tracks for express trains, so the local train use the time to service 2 new stops. (This was Metrolinx's justification in adding the Park Lawn GO Station)

 

[robmausser]

Strategically putting 3rd and 4th tracks at where the train actually overtakes another are better than merely quad tracking the whole line. For the express train to overtake the local train, the local train just needs to travel slower from Ellesmere to Kennedy, which means it might actually better to put stations at Ellesmere and Lawrence with passing tracks for express trains, so the local train use the time to service 2 new stops. (This was Metrolinx's justification in adding the Park Lawn GO Station)

At the very least, I had a look again at the track space, and it seems like the only bottleneck is from Agincourt to the new Finch station. North of the Finch station and south of Agincourt there is more room for a third passing track.

So it probably wont be that big of a problem. Its doable with modern ATC/PTC.