SmartTrack (Proposed)

[nfitz]

Is your calculation off?
http://www.gotransit.com/publicroot/images/maps/system_map.png

...
On the stoufville line, there is 3 stop, not 5, because you can't count Union station twice, and Unionville station is already in Markham.

Yes, it appears that only 4 of the 10 stops on Stouffvile are in Toronto. I forgot that Stouffville trains no longer stop at Scarborough station.

For the same reason, there is 2 stops on the Richmond Hill line.

There are currently 5 stops on the Richmond Hill line. 3 are in Toronto.

So among the total of 63 Go stations, only 19 stations are within Toronto, or about 30%, correct me if I am wrong.
Of course I can say the GO train primarily serves people outside Toronto.

You can twist the statistics as much as you want. The bottom line is that there are more GO Train station in Toronto than any other city in the GTA.

GO Trains primarily serve people outside Mississauga.
GO Trains primarily serve people outside Oshawa.
GO Trains primarily serve people outside Brampton.
GO Trains primarily serve people outside Barrie.
GO Trains primarily serve people outside Ajax.
GO Trains primarily serve people outside Hamilton.
GO Trains primarily serve people outside Whitby.
GO Trains primarily serve people outside Kitchener.

It is however disingenuous to suggest that GO is not of any value or use to people living in Toronto, and particularly that the RER "will be nearly useless to people living in Toronto."

The RER will be very useful to many in Toronto. And I expect that RER will be used by more people in Toronto than any other City in the GTA - just like the GO Trains.

 

[ssiguy2]

If GO wants to create a real RER system then they better get off this notion that somehow Toronto is not part of the GTAH.

No you can not figure fares to the last nickel but rounding a fare off is one thing, price gouging is quite another. For a distance based system charging 5X more for one trip than another by km is grotesque and makes a mockery of the idea that GO is distance based. By charging even $2 extra they would probably see ridership soar from the inner Toronto areas as no one is stupid enough to take it now. It would be a cash cow and wouldn't slow the trains down one little bit.

Again this is why SmartTrack was so well received by Torontonians and the UPX and RER support goes from infuriated to indifferent. ST is something that all Torontonians will be able to take advantage of unlike RER or UPX where all the electrification and frequency in the world will make almost no difference to the truly pathetic ridership it gets within the city itself.

 

[APTA-2048]

You keep thinking that. I'll keep taking the train from Rouge Hill to Union for $5.17.

 

[TOareaFan]

By charging even $2 extra they would probably see ridership soar from the inner Toronto areas as no one is stupid enough to take it now. It would be a cash cow and wouldn't slow the trains down one little bit.

Really? GO from Ex to Union is $4.68 (which I think is within your $2 threshold) and yet the folks in LV decided a more expsensive private bus was a good option.

 

[LNahid2000]

Really? GO from Ex to Union is $4.68 (which I think is within your $2 threshold) and yet the folks in LV decided a more expsensive private bus was a good option.

The problem isn't the $4.68 fare. The problem is that you'd need to pay an additional $2.70 to get on the TTC, if your destination isn't Union. Not sure why LV people would choose the bus over the GO Train though.

 

[rbt]

The problem isn't the $4.68 fare. The problem is that you'd need to pay an additional $2.70 to get on the TTC, if your destination isn't Union. Not sure why LV people would choose the bus over the GO Train though.

The LV special coach bus includes a TTC transfer? How do they do that, give you a token when you pay your coach fare?

 

[mdrejhon]

The problem isn't the $4.68 fare. The problem is that you'd need to pay an additional $2.70 to get on the TTC, if your destination isn't Union. Not sure why LV people would choose the bus over the GO Train though.

Fare unification is coming -- somewhere between now and 2020.

 

[LNahid2000]

The LV special coach bus includes a TTC transfer? How do they do that, give you a token when you pay your coach fare?

No they don't.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

If GO wants to create a real RER system then they better get off this notion that somehow Toronto is not part of the GTAH.

No you can not figure fares to the last nickel but rounding a fare off is one thing, price gouging is quite another. For a distance based system charging 5X more for one trip than another by km is grotesque and makes a mockery of the idea that GO is distance based. By charging even $2 extra they would probably see ridership soar from the inner Toronto areas as no one is stupid enough to take it now. It would be a cash cow and wouldn't slow the trains down one little bit.

Again this is why SmartTrack was so well received by Torontonians and the UPX and RER support goes from infuriated to indifferent. ST is something that all Torontonians will be able to take advantage of unlike RER or UPX where all the electrification and frequency in the world will make almost no difference to the truly pathetic ridership it gets within the city itself.

I like to bring up the Liberty Village crowd funded bus as a case example.

People in Toronto either hate or ignore GO to such an extent that the people in Liberty Village would rather crowdfund a bus to Downtown for the same fare as taking the GO train.

Would they still do that if it had a TTC fare and it showed up on TTC subway maps? I don't think so.

 

[mdrejhon]

People in Toronto either hate or ignore GO to such an extent that the people in Liberty Village would rather crowdfund a bus to Downtown for the same fare as taking the GO train.

Have you tried walking to the Exhibition Place GO station from the Liberty Village area? It's not a very appealing walk, and it's a very long walk (more than 15 minutes) from the more remote reaches of Liberty Village. They need to build better infrastructure (e.g. pedestrian overpass or tunnel) in a couple locations, and/or put two SmartTrack stations (east/west) near Liberty Village. Such as better infrastructure existing Exhibition Place station, plus a new infill station further up the line at the westernmost reaches of Liberty.

Once they properly integrate the fare (e.g. $3 and free TTC transfers) and make station access much more convenient, plus make the train service more frequent (15 minute or better, instead of 30 minute), it will become far more attractive to Liberty Village.

Would they still do that if it had a TTC fare and it showed up on TTC subway maps? I don't think so.

Right. People would no longer hate the system if it had TTC fares, showed up on the unified transit network maps (TTC+Metrolinx maps shown at both TTC+Metrolinx stations), had more frequent service (subway-style hop-on-frequent), and easier pedestrian access to a Liberty Village optimized station that you don't dread going to during -30C in mid-winter. Bonus points if there's an indoor heated waiting area.

 

[ehlow]

What are your (everyone's) thoughts on the idea in the SRRA Relief Line Study where you first create SmartTrack along the rail corridor. Then, after it's running, dig a new Wellington downtown tunnel and divert the line through the tunnel when it's ready?

 

[BurlOak]

What are your (everyone's) thoughts on the idea in the SRRA Relief Line Study where you first create SmartTrack along the rail corridor. Then, after it's running, dig a new Wellington downtown tunnel and divert the line through the tunnel when it's ready?

1. I have said that the DRL should go farther north to keep Wellington open for a GO tunnel. This SRRA Relief Line Study seems to agree with that.
2. Also, I have also said that the DRL is on shaky footing because of two things. 1. The Eglinton line not being grade separated - thus little need to get the line north of Danforth, and there is a fear of building a short stub line from Pape to King. 2. With the Liberal majority victory, the key to them keeping power is to appeal to the 905. Thus, GO improvements are much more likely than a new subway in downtown - an area that already supports Liberals. Maybe in 20 or 30 years years when the DRL finally gets built it can use King, Adelaide, or Richmond.

 

[MrsNesbitt]

What are your (everyone's) thoughts on the idea in the SRRA Relief Line Study where you first create SmartTrack along the rail corridor. Then, after it's running, dig a new Wellington downtown tunnel and divert the line through the tunnel when it's ready?

Definitely a good idea. GO RER (ie SmartTrack) needs to happen sooner rather than later, and the sooner it can be implemented in a more traditional manner along our rail corridors, the sooner the voting public can come to experience its benefits and swing their opinion (and influence on various levels of government) towards a rail tunnel downtown, which would admittedly be an expensive project. But a very, very fruitful one.

I'm a little unsure on the alignment of the tunnel however. If we ever do get a DRL in addition to RER, I feel like using the same tunnel for both (obviously on dedicated separate tracks) would be most suitable and convenient. In that case I think King St is a better choice than Wellington, being as it's further north from Union and is closer to the heart of the Financial District.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

That would be a huge tunnel to be made by TBMs.

 

[Rainforest]

What are your (everyone's) thoughts on the idea in the SRRA Relief Line Study where you first create SmartTrack along the rail corridor. Then, after it's running, dig a new Wellington downtown tunnel and divert the line through the tunnel when it's ready?

Sounds good, or at least practical. The riders get some early benefits from the surface SmartTrack Phase 1, and then it should be a bit easier to collect funds for the expensive downtown tunnel.

I'm a little unsure on the alignment of the tunnel however. If we ever do get a DRL in addition to RER, I feel like using the same tunnel for both (obviously on dedicated separate tracks) would be most suitable and convenient. In that case I think King St is a better choice than Wellington, being as it's further north from Union and is closer to the heart of the Financial District.

I think there are 3 options:

a) Separate tunnels for SmartTrack and DRL; quite expensive.

b) A combined tunnel, but with separate pairs of tracks as you mentioned. This should result in substantial savings compared to (a), but require robust coordination between the two projects.

c) I would even consider the option of sharing the same pair of tracks between SmartTrack and DRL. Obviously, DRL will have to use mainline-compatible track width and rolling stock in that case. I imagine that such DRL will split off SmartTrack in the Pape & Queen area, continue north in a tunnel, and connect to Danforth subway at Pape or Donlands. It would continue north-east mostly tunneled, serving Thorncliffe, Flemmington, Eglinton & Don Mills. Further north, it could switch to surface Bala Sub (RH GO) corridor just north of Lawrence.

Option (c) should be the cheapest for downtown tunneling, but may incur higher costs further north as the mainline rail tunnel has to be wider than subway tunnel. I am not sure if it is cheaper or more expensive overall.