SmartTrack (Proposed)

[EnviroTO]

I agree on zone fares for non local services like subway, express / limited stop buses, trains, etc. But if there was a way to take a local bus across the country taking 20 days I'm not sure that $3 still isn't the right fare. The value of a service is related to speed, distance, and comfort or enjoyability. If the trip is torture and a complete waste of time you can't charge more for it.

 

[ssiguy2]

If the TTC decides to go a for a distance based system it must be a FAIR one unlike GO. Someone going from Dundas West to Union pays about 89 cents/km whereas someone from Burlington is paying about 18 cents.

 

[ksun]

If the TTC decides to go a for a distance based system it must be a FAIR one unlike GO. Someone going from Dundas West to Union pays about 89 cents/km whereas someone from Burlington is paying about 18 cents.

Go primarily serves people outside Toronto anyway. How many GO stops are within the 416? Despite the fanfare about RER, it will be nearly useless to people living in Toronto.
TTC on the other hand, is different. Following your GO logic, I can also say TTC is extremely unfair to riders as well. Someone traveling from Bloor to Queen pays $1.35/km, while from Finch to Queen pays $0.15/km. Both are public transit.

 

[muller877]

If the TTC decides to go a for a distance based system it must be a FAIR one unlike GO. Someone going from Dundas West to Union pays about 89 cents/km whereas someone from Burlington is paying about 18 cents.

Almost all distance based fare systems have a fixed component and a variable component. This is based on cost and to incent various behaviours.

The behaviour we do not want is for someone to get on at one stop and off at the next for surface routes (and say it only costs $0.10). Imagine how much slower these routes would be waiting for all these people.

 

[LNahid2000]

Go primarily serves people outside Toronto anyway. How many GO stops are within the 416? Despite the fanfare about RER, it will be nearly useless to people living in Toronto.

Quite a few by my count...19.

The behaviour we do not want is for someone to get on at one stop and off at the next for surface routes (and say it only costs $0.10). Imagine how much slower these routes would be waiting for all these people.

This already happens with 2/3 of TTC passengers having metropasses.

 

[nfitz]

Go primarily serves people outside Toronto anyway. How many GO stops are within the 416?

6 of 10 stops on Lakeshore East. 5 of 11 stops on Stouffville. 3 of 5 stops on Richmond Hill. GO is very 905-centric, but when lines have most of their stops in Toronto, surely you can't say that line primarily services people outside of Toronto.

 

[DarnDirtyApe]

Here's an interesting development, straight from the horse's mouth (Mayor Tory): there's a new grassroots (or perhaps astroturf? It was a little ambiguous) citizens group in the works to support SmartTrack. It's going to be called FAST or something similar, they just need figure out what the all of the letters stand for. Friends ____ Smart Track.

 

[salsa]

Here's an interesting development, straight from the horse's mouth (Mayor Tory): there's a new grassroots (or perhaps astroturf? It was a little ambiguous) citizens group in the works to support SmartTrack. It's going to be called FAST or something similar, they just need figure out what the all of the letters stand for. Friends ____ Smart Track.

FAST Track would have been a good name.

 

[wopchop]

Here's an interesting development, straight from the horse's mouth (Mayor Tory): there's a new grassroots (or perhaps astroturf? It was a little ambiguous) citizens group in the works to support SmartTrack. It's going to be called FAST or something similar, they just need figure out what the all of the letters stand for. Friends ____ Smart Track.

Friends Approve Smart Track!

 

[mdrejhon]

Go primarily serves people outside Toronto anyway. How many GO stops are within the 416? Despite the fanfare about RER, it will be nearly useless to people living in Toronto.

GO RER adds many new pedestrian-friendly subway-style stations.
There are going to be MANY new 416 and near-416 infill stations.
Examples:
- Gerrard Square Mall (Riverdale area)
- Liberty Village
- Eglington (interchange with Crosstown & UPX)
etc.

There's at least a dozen new infill station locations being proposed. GO RER electric trains, faster-accelerating and being 10-25% faster, means more stations can be added and still be faster than before. Can't wait to see what the GO RER EA's reveal.

That said, I wish GO can figure out out how to activate the midtown crosstown line (aka GO Midtown, GO Seaton) and do RER-level service, we now have another crosstown "subway" between Eglinton Crosstown and Bloor Line. It's not impossible to expand it to a 4-track as the corridor apparently kept most of the original right-of-way room for that. Throw a few bones to CP (improved track and better signalling, to allow CP to be happy with Metrolinx having two tracks to itself full-time), and viola.

And we can add a lot more stations on the Don Valley line, too. There's no stations between Union and 401 on that GOtrain line! There can be some creativity (e.g. gondolas, funiculars) to bring people down the valley from some population hotspots at the top edge of the valley, such as a Castlefrank TTC-DonValleyGO connection. DRL-mini. Some cities have added gondola connections to their transit systems in the last 10 years! (Metrolinx: please steal this idea)

Within 10-25 years -- double to triple the number of 416 stations on GO network, thanks to GO RER.

This is why we need to let the SmartTrack-style plans of GO RERizing all 7 GOtrain lines proceed -- gradually, 416ers also benefit.

 

[Palma]

Almost all distance based fare systems have a fixed component and a variable component. This is based on cost and to incent various behaviours.

The behaviour we do not want is for someone to get on at one stop and off at the next for surface routes (and say it only costs $0.10). Imagine how much slower these routes would be waiting for all these people.

Thats why for surface it cannot be based on a per km price but a flat price. Fare by distance can only work on subways because the subway will stop at each designated stop anyways

 

[ksun]

6 of 10 stops on Lakeshore East. 5 of 11 stops on Stouffville. 3 of 5 stops on Richmond Hill. GO is very 905-centric, but when lines have most of their stops in Toronto, surely you can't say that line primarily services people outside of Toronto.

Is your calculation off?
http://www.gotransit.com/publicroot/images/maps/system_map.png

6 on Lakeshore East, including union itself.
On the stoufville line, there is 3 stop, not 5, because you can't count Union station twice, and Unionville station is already in Markham.
For the same reason, there is 2 stops on the Richmond Hill line.
Plus 1 stop on the Barrie line, 3 stops on Kitchener line, 2 on Milton line, and 3 on Lakeshore west.

So among the total of 63 Go stations, only 19 stations are within Toronto, or about 30%, correct me if I am wrong.
Of course I can say the GO train primarily serves people outside Toronto.

 

[ksun]

GO RER adds many new pedestrian-friendly subway-style stations.
There are going to be MANY new 416 and near-416 infill stations.
Examples:
- Gerrard Square Mall (Riverdale area)
- Liberty Village
- Eglington (interchange with Crosstown & UPX)
etc.

There's at least a dozen new infill station locations being proposed. GO RER electric trains, faster-accelerating and being 10-25% faster, means more stations can be added and still be faster than before. Can't wait to see what the GO RER EA's reveal.

That said, I wish GO can figure out out how to activate the midtown crosstown line (aka GO Midtown, GO Seaton) and do RER-level service, we now have another crosstown "subway" between Eglinton Crosstown and Bloor Line. It's not impossible to expand it to a 4-track as the corridor apparently kept most of the original right-of-way room for that. Throw a few bones to CP (improved track and better signalling, to allow CP to be happy with Metrolinx having two tracks to itself full-time), and viola.

And we can add a lot more stations on the Don Valley line, too. There's no stations between Union and 401 on that GOtrain line! There can be some creativity (e.g. gondolas, funiculars) to bring people down the valley from some population hotspots at the top edge of the valley, such as a Castlefrank TTC-DonValleyGO connection. DRL-mini. Some cities have added gondola connections to their transit systems in the last 10 years! (Metrolinx: please steal this idea)

Within 10-25 years -- double to triple the number of 416 stations on GO network, thanks to GO RER.

.

I agree with you.
The problem with Go is it is so suburban focused. Even among the station within the 416, most are located near the edge of the city, and very few are in the old city. Besides Union, there is Exhibition, Danforth and Bloor, that's all. It seems to solely serve people who commute from the suburbs to work for twice a day, instead of functioning as an urban transit.

 

[LNahid2000]

I agree with you.
The problem with Go is it is so suburban focused. Even among the station within the 416, most are located near the edge of the city, and very few are in the old city. Besides Union, there is Exhibition, Danforth and Bloor, that's all. It seems to solely serve people who commute from the suburbs to work for twice a day, instead of functioning as an urban transit.

You're describing the current state here. The point of GO RER is to transform the current GO system from a rush hour only commuter service to surface subways that can be used by anyone at any time of the day.

 

[ksun]

Thats why for surface it cannot be based on a per km price but a flat price. Fare by distance can only work on subways because the subway will stop at each designated stop anyways

yes, I agree that buses/streetcars should continue charge a flat fee, while subways/LRTs should be distanced based.

I hate the argument saying by charging by distance, we punish "poorer people". Completely wrong and groundless. As the income level maps show, Toronto's wealth don't congregates downtown, but rather along the subway lines between Bathrust and Bayview as well as along the lake. Has little to do with distance to downtown. Plus, many downtowners have little money - students, people in subsidized apartments etc. It is unfair to force them to subsidize those who travel from Bayview/Lawrence.