Sheppard Subway - Development Impacts

[roch5220]

However, in the spirit of this thread, I'm pretty sure that if there was a DRL, it would provide more economic development dollars than the transit city LRT lines. Not only do can you look at the Sheppard development - that started in anticipation of the subway, but the DRL would cut through already high dense neighbourhoods, hence you won't get the NIMBY resistence that opposes highrise condo development. Don Mills definately has a lot of potential still and could be the next bastion of affordably priced condos. Even larger family sized units.

 

[ShonTron]

But the Don Mills route ends at Pape Station, not Broadview. Steve Munro figures that the Pape section would have to be buried, but doesn't quite say how he'd get the additional riders downtown, though he says there'll be something. (Though I really respect him, I wonder why Downtown Relief Line isn't in his vocabulary)

 

[roch5220]

But the Don Mills route ends at Pape Station, not Broadview. Steve Munro figures that the Pape section would have to be buried, but doesn't quite say how he'd get the additional riders downtown, though he says there'll be something. (Though I really respect him, I wonder why Downtown Relief Line isn't in his vocabulary)

Exhibit one has broadview clearly as the identified current transit priority segment. Not Pape.

http://www.transitcity.ca/media/TransitCity_fullreport.pdf

Things may have to be adjusted for a number of reasons though, for which Munro maybe thinking about as well. Even though Broadview maybe the obvious choice for planners currently as that station already has the infrastructure ready having existing streetcar infrastructure, it maynot be the best choice. When the Don Mills line hits the intersection of Pape and O'connor, where the 100 bus has to turn onto Oconnor to get onto broadview, that intersection could be a problem for turning streetcars. You may save time by running the line straight down Pape, then continue it south of Pape station, and making the turn on Queen, where the existing Broadview streetcar has to turn anyways. It could decrease trip times, but then you probably would have to take away the existing 504 infrastructure between the danforth and queen, which would increase the price. The time savings may only be 2-4 minutes, if that - but then again, all of the small time saving adjustments you make could make the difference between consistent/reliable decent trip times, and unreliable wide ranging trip times where people just become faustrated with.

 

[ShonTron]

Exhibit 1 is an old map from the Official Plan. For example, Wilson is shown, though it is not part of Transit City. The Transit City map (Page 6) clearly shows Pape.

 

[roch5220]

The exhibit highlights what are the areas that they are looking at for rapid transit expansion. Not all the highlighted areas are going to get rapid transit, as you will note a lot of the existing streetcar routes are highlighted (possibly for upgrade to ROW). But, Broadview is highlighted, but Pape is not. In light of this, and none of the writeups on this route state which BD subway station its going to intersect with, it appears the planners have their eyes on Broadview. WIth the highlighted sections as well, planners have already assessed these corridors. Myself, I am for Pape, but with whats been released with the exhibit + where the current streetcar infrastructure exists, I doubt Pape is the initial choice. Especially if they did pick pape and not change the alignment of 504, then Scarberianhatru would definately have a valid point which I would agree with.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I wouldn't worry too much about what's currently in the Transit City Plan, considering it's the EA that more or less specify the actual routing. Like in this case, the Don Mills EA TOR clearly stated a wide range of options to be considered:

http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/don_mills/tor.htm#amend

One should see the Transit City plan as a visioning document, and not to hang up on the specifics. It's like Official Plan vs. Secondary/Precinct Plans.

AoD

 

[scarberiankhatru]

$2 billion could pay for the DRL from Bloor to Danforth - it doesn't even need to be underground for a distance east of Union. The $2+ billion figure for Spadina is unnecessarily inflated since they're practically tunneling under empty fields and adding two stations that may see no use. It's the Pape to Dundas West portion that matters most, *not* possible Don Mills or 'Weston' extensions. But, yeah, a DRL including Don Mills and Weston branches would do more for the city overall than any number of suburban streetcar routes. Not that such an opinion matters - at this point we're just brick walls fighting with each other.

Especially if they did pick pape and not change the alignment of 504, then Scarberianhatru would definately have a valid point which I would agree with.

Even if they did pick Broadview so that a Don Mills rider can transfer to a Broadview car, who on earth is going to sit on a streetcar all the way downtown when they can take the subway? Of course, the entire MoveOntario plan will ensure the subway system is cripplingly overcrowded, so some people will be forced off of it.

Then people will say "but these streetcars are for local service, not longer distances." Well, I'm going to love the decreased frequency of service on Sheppard East. There's simply no excuse for introducing Rocket express service first on these suburban routes, since it offers substantial travel time improvements. If we had a better subway network, we wouldn't have to worry about feeder routes with over 40,000 riders a day...any other city in the world would build a DRL with Weston and Don Mills branches which would split long routes up and ensure barely any are over 25,000 per day.

 

[roch5220]

$2 billion could pay for the DRL from Bloor to Danforth - it doesn't even need to be underground for a distance east of Union. The $2+ billion figure for Spadina is unnecessarily inflated since they're practically tunneling under empty fields and adding two stations that may see no use. It's the Pape to Dundas West portion that matters most, *not* possible Don Mills or 'Weston' extensions. But, yeah, a DRL including Don Mills and Weston branches would do more for the city overall than any number of suburban streetcar routes. Not that such an opinion matters - at this point we're just brick walls fighting with each other.
.

Hey, you said it. How can I argue against a brick wall that thinks the DRL loop from Danforth to Bloor will cost a mere $2 billion.

 

[roch5220]

Even if they did pick Broadview so that a Don Mills rider can transfer to a Broadview car, who on earth is going to sit on a streetcar all the way downtown when they can take the subway? .

Well, I am assuming they will be using the same new vehicles, so a transfer wouldn't matter. But, they would have to improve the trip south of danforth to make it success. Because currently, not many take the 504 from broadview instead of taking the subway downtown. I'm with you on that one.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

So the transfer won't matter? You obviously don't need to transfer 4 times to get somewhere on a regular basis then.

 

[roch5220]

No, I mean when they pick the new LRT vehicles to replace the current ones, I am assuming they will use the same vehicles. Hence, the Don Mills line and the 504 will become 1, with Broadview being a stop, inside the above ground surface level terminal.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Operating very long streetcar lines in this city like Queen has been such a resounding success...bring it on!

 

[roch5220]

Lol. I was actually thinking about that, how they would probably bunch up from the mixed traffic street routes south of danforht.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Hey, you said it. How can I argue against a brick wall that thinks the DRL loop from Danforth to Bloor will cost a mere $2 billion.

Yes, I think we could build it for that cheap. Vancouver's Canada Line cost like $1.5 Billion for about 15km of transit. It's not subway technology but it is tunneled for portions...there's no way the difference in technologies would be a magnitude of 4X the cost.

$6 billion could pay for a much longer DRL than Bloor to Danforth...long enough to effectively take over the role of some of the Transit City lines in addition to relieving existing subway lines. Throw in some Rocket routes and 95% of TTC riders benefit, far more than would benefit from Transit City.

 

[rbt]

$2 billion could pay for the DRL from Bloor to Danforth - it doesn't even need to be underground for a distance east of Union.

Rolling stock and storage for same are included in the estimates. No point in building track if you forget to receive funding for the trains.

Yonge line runs 46 trains and Bloor/Danforth runs 35 trains during rush.

The rolling stock (subway cars) for 3 minute service on the DRL is going to take roughly 20 trains, 2 or 3 spare trains for maintenance/repairs/spares, and a shop to store them.

Already we've eaten up $400M of your $2B and we haven't laid any track yet.

Retrofitting Union station will be another $150M or more to allow for efficient transfers (stacked stations). This is essential because we know there will be a ton of riders starting on the DRL along Pape or Front and transferring northbound on the Yonge line to Queen/Dundas/College.

Likewise, building above/below Broadview (pick a station) is another $100M to $150M depending on the complexities involved. Working in close vicinity to a functioning station drives costs quite high.

Going Over or Under the DVP and turning tracks is good for another $100M in bridge or tunnel work. Keep in mind that this area is a flood zone. Going under requires a bunch of engineering to ensure the tunnel doesn't wash away. Leslie had comparable work but over a much shorter span. Going at level would required the 3 minute subway service gets backed for Go Trains merging in towards Union. Not going to happen. You'll be lucky if they're willing to give up track space to let the TTC run trains in that corridor.