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Sheppard Subway - Development Impacts

The idea of Transit City is that a large LRT network can serve more people than a small subway network, but these people don't consider the effect on intensification that a subway has if it is built in the right place. Yeah, sure it is expensive, but how much revenue has city gotten from all these developments listed here?

Even relatively small-scale subway projects would be better than a larger streetcar network...people will go out of their way to ride subways. I'd even say that if at all successful, the Transit City streetcar lines will be so solely because of the existing subway system.

These condos would still have been built, maybe not on Sheppard, but certainly somewhere. The city has done virtually nothing new for transit downtown yet development has exploded.

I'm not sure they would all get built...an equal number of residential units would probably be built in the 905, but those 11,000 condos wouldn't just have moved to Rexdale, and even if they were built elsewhere, they'd have crappy transit access. If there was no Yonge subway, all the office and apartment nodes on Yonge would be a fraction the size and could instead have translated into a fully subdivided Caledon. As for downtown, remember downtown already has subways, and other transit lines that go straight to downtown in minutes, and this isn't even including the fact that you can walk to the CBD from most of the new downtown developments.
 
Let me start by saying I'm not opposed to subways. I'm all for completing the Sheppard line in full. I'm just saying buildings would have gone up somewhere else. The subway doesn't create condo demand it just indicates where they can be located. MCC has no subway and look at the growth there. And Mississauga benfited from the development fees without having to spend a significant amount on transportation infrastructure. Having said that they'll pay for that someday.
 
Let me start by saying I'm not opposed to subways. I'm all for completing the Sheppard line in full. I'm just saying buildings would have gone up somewhere else. The subway doesn't create condo demand it just indicates where they can be located. MCC has no subway and look at the growth there. And Mississauga benfited from the development fees without having to spend a significant amount on transportation infrastructure. Having said that they'll pay for that someday.

MCC is different. There is no infill development in MCC, only greenfield development, and there are no new offices unlike with Sheppard. Due to the lack of subways and LRT, there is very little infill development of any kind in Mississauga, let alone high-density ones like you see along Sheppard. Hurontario and Dundas have seen very little redevelopment despite their high potential.

Also, I don't think that more condo development in one place necessarily means less condo development in another place. I think it is affected by decreasing demand for new houses as well, or decreased supply of new houses. If Toronto never built any subways and just stuck with the streetcars, would there still be as much condo developments in Toronto today?
 
MCC is different. There is no infill development in MCC, only greenfield development, and there are no new offices unlike with Sheppard. Due to the lack of subways and LRT, there is very little infill development of any kind in Mississauga, let alone high-density ones like you see along Sheppard. Hurontario and Dundas have seen very little redevelopment despite their high potential.


Probably so as you would know better than me, I am suprised though how some parts of mississauga are becoming denser. Around my parent's area, more and more townhouses are going in when before, it would be definately fully detached units (or in spaces where development probably wasn't allowed before, in small areas). Also, highrises are starting to appear near mall areas and GO stations. There are also one off deveopments that seem to impress me that appear 'out of the blue'. Like on Lakeshore, basically at Mississauga road, there are nice townhouses with the bottem floor being retail. This leads me to believe that some potential is being realized - the question is more it it can be replicated in Mississauga on a wide scale.
 
"Infill", in Mississauga, largely consists of townhouses. You can get a fairly high density without going high-rise. I think of several locations, including some areas on the "fringe" of the MCC, the Port Credit area (former St. Lawrence lands), and a number of sites in Clarkson. Smaler infills are happening in numerous locations. But remember that much of Mississauga dates from the 1960s and 70s. Detached homes on what we would now call large lots was the predominant development form.

As a resident of Miss. I really don't expect ever to see a subway. There are nodes such as MCC that are obviously developing very high densities (and BTW don't rule out more offices there). I could also mention a couple of other nodes. People may not realize how much office development is going into the Mississauga Road and 401 area. But these centres are separated by big expanses of 1960s low-density housing which will be very resistant to large-scale redevelopment.

This is why people who talk of a subway to MCC are delusional. Between the present end of the subway at Kipling, and Hurontario Street, are at least 6 km. of low-density, mainly residential suburb. Who is going to pay to build, and then operate, a subway through there? We laugh at Vaughan, but they would have every right to laugh at us, in return, if such a proposal were to come forward.
 
This is why people who talk of a subway to MCC are delusional. Between the present end of the subway at Kipling, and Hurontario Street, are at least 6 km. of low-density, mainly residential suburb. Who is going to pay to build, and then operate, a subway through there? We laugh at Vaughan, but they would have every right to laugh at us, in return, if such a proposal were to come forward.

Both York Mills and Victoria Park stations are next to golf courses. Warden and Wilson stations are next to absolutely nothing. If there's stuff within walking distance of a subway station, it's just a bonus since all suburban stations - North York Centre and Yorkdale being the two exceptions - rely on bus feeder traffic more than anything else. Of course, MCC would be as far out as a Spadina line to Vaughan Mills or a Yonge line to Major Mac.
 
I think the point that the 'subway first' people on this thread are missing is that Transit City was proposed, because for the price of just one subway line, you could have an entire NETWORK of LRT lines crisscrossing the city. So we could either have one subway line, or have a bunch of new LRT lines which would serve MANY more people, and relieve much more congestion. And who's to say that well-built LRT with 4-car long trains won't spur development either?
 
$6 billion would build a lot of subway, too. For example, the city of Toronto is getting the Spadina extension for roughly half of what the Finch West streetcar alone is projected to cost. We could probably extend Yonge, Bloor, Danforth, finish Sheppard, build a DRL, and still have enough money left over to set up a comprehensive Rocket bus service on every major route...only the most fervent LRT fans could argue that this would benefit fewer people. I have very little faith that the TTC and the city will implement proper LRT. People will go out of their way to ride a subway to greatly lower travel times, but they won't do the same to ride a streetcar that will offer negligible improvements. The loss of frequent/express bus service on suburban arterials like Sheppard East could hurt ridership, too. And unless suburban roads are widened, Transit City will increase congestion. Worst case scenario, we get the capacity of buses at the cost of subways: don't say you weren't warned :)

Oh, and I'm not "subway first"...I was GO first, but GO's getting a tremendous boost, so it's time to move on to other projects.
 
the city of Toronto is getting the Spadina extension for roughly half of what the Finch West streetcar alone is projected to cost. .

??? Isn't the spadina extension cost suppose to be around $2billion? Theres no way the finch west line is going to cost that much.

Unless your trying to play with numbers, the City of Toronto is sharing their 1/3 cost with Vaughan for the subway. They are 'planned' on spending nothing for the streetcar lines as the province expects the feds to pick up the remaining 1/3 that they province isn't picking up.
 
Well, they're not paying anything for Spadina now, either. Before this announcement, the city would have had to pay for Finch West itself, something that would have been more than double the cost of Toronto's share of the subway.

So we could either have one subway line, or have a bunch of new LRT lines which would serve MANY more people, and relieve much more congestion. And who's to say that well-built LRT with 4-car long trains won't spur development either?

Every one of these LRT lines will cost at least close to a billion dollars. That will buy quite a substantial amount of subway, especially if you don't build it at the TTC's hyper-inflated costs. I'm not comparing to Madrid or something, either. Even Montreal has built a subway line (with lavish stations) for hundreds of millions less than the TTC quotes.

The "reducing congestion" argument is one conveniently used by politicians proposing new project. Nobody seriously thinks that it will make roads flow any better. I might add that these streetcar projects will likely make many roads flow much worse, since it will mean complex light cycles at every intersection, bans on left turns and turns into driveways, and most of all a reduction in lanes.

"Well-built" is a big if. The TTC has had many chances to build LRT well. Spadina is an utter failure, popular because of its location but abysmal as a transit service. It's wildly unreliable, with vehicles operating on no discernable headway. It's also incredibly slow, sometimes taking longer than half-an-hour to get from Front to Bloor. Even a recent study showed that it isn't any faster than the bus it replaced. I've heard the argument from very sensible people that "At least the infrastructure is there, it can be fixed in the future." Well, it's been well over a decade on Spadina and there's no sign of fixing it. Instead, we want to wallpaper the city in Spadinas. I had confidence, though, that these mistakes would be rectified on St. Clair. We would have real light rail that would actually improve travel times, the real most important criteria for people deciding to take transit (or deciding to take a surface route instead of a parallel subway line). The estimated travel time savings, before the line is even complete, have been revised downward and downward until now they are now virtually nothing. So, at a cost of millions and a lot of enraged neighbours, we have a service that's no faster, and to top it all off will have significantly reduced frequency! Once again, I support the St. Clair project with the highest of hopes, but the TTC just doesn't seem capable of operating light rail routes, however much they like to spend money building them.

I was willing to give them a pass on Spadina, their first try, but St. Clair was supposed to be the showpiece for this new generation of light rail lines. I honestly right now can't see the improvement, certainly not net of the damage caused to the neighbourhood by limiting access to local streets and reducing street parking. Come on, TTC. Show us you're remotely capable of operating these lines before spending $6 billion on new ones.
 
I was willing to give them a pass on Spadina, their first try, but St. Clair was supposed to be the showpiece for this new generation of light rail lines. I honestly right now can't see the improvement, certainly not net of the damage caused to the neighbourhood by limiting access to local streets and reducing street parking. Come on, TTC. Show us you're remotely capable of operating these lines before spending $6 billion on new ones.

I have to agree but I'm not sure we can blame the TTC for the issues on Spadina or St. Clair since it is really the works department (road folks) that are doing most of the designing work by adding constraints.

The fix for both of these services is actually straight forward, though I admit I haven't done any work to complain to the TTC or works department. Add a second priority detection mechanism 100m up the street from the light so the streetcar has a green when it gets to the intersection instead of waiting at the intersection itself.

We know how long it takes pedestrians to cross the street, which is the main limitation to changing the light to green, so just move the sensors ahead in the roadway by that amount of time.
 
Even though St. Clair might be an improvement over Spadina, the proposed streetcar lines are all two or three times as long, which will complicate headways and frequencies, affecting wait and travel times. People like to go on about how this stuff runs like clockwork in Germany, but we're not in Germany.

??? Isn't the spadina extension cost suppose to be around $2billion? Theres no way the finch west line is going to cost that much.

Unless your trying to play with numbers, the City of Toronto is sharing their 1/3 cost with Vaughan for the subway. They are 'planned' on spending nothing for the streetcar lines as the province expects the feds to pick up the remaining 1/3 that they province isn't picking up.

I thought it was obvious, but, yeah, I failed to add "would have spent" on the Finch West line, now that Move Ontario might pay for all this stuff. Why keep dragging up the notion that Toronto is spending $2 billion on the Spadina extension? It's never been true.

And if the feds and provs keep picking up the tab on stuff we plan for, there's absolutely no reason why we can't plan a few subway lines where they're warranted...the city loves to say we can't build them because they're too expensive compared to other modes - how is free too expensive?
 
I thought it was obvious, but, yeah, I failed to add "would have spent" on the Finch West line, now that Move Ontario might pay for all this stuff. Why keep dragging up the notion that Toronto is spending $2 billion on the Spadina extension? It's never been true.

Because your math wasn't correct

For example, the city of Toronto is getting the Spadina extension for roughly half of what the Finch West streetcar alone is projected to cost. .

City of Toronto and Vaughan are going to share the cost of the 1/3 based upon a formula.

City of Toronto cost of Finch West Line is nil. So I didn't know how you calculated the cost for the City of Toronto for the subway extension being half of what the streetcar line was going to cost. What cost is it to the city, hence, its not clear what you are talking about.

And you can't say that the MoveOntario funding arrangement changed as from the start, the province announced they were going to fund 2/3s, while wanting the feds to fund the remainder to leave the cash strapped cities alone. Thats all, which it is why it wasn't obvious, and I am still a little blurry on what your point is.
 
Toronto was going to have to pay the entire $830M for the Finch West streetcar before the province stepped in with this announcement. Toronto was going to share the municipal third of the Spadina extension with York Region, an amount that would have been ~$450M, but we're getting that extension for free now that it's listed as #52 on the MoveOntario list. Anyway, I don't know how you can sit there and claim my math is wrong when you suggest the city of Toronto would spend $2 billion on the Spadina extension...that was never true.

We can claim subways are obscenely expensive but we know - we almost expect - that funding arrangements change and deals with upper levels of government can be made to reduce the burden on municipalities. If all we plan for is a series of streetcars (albeit at a scale that the city alone could possibly not afford), all we're going to get are streetcars. The Eglinton LRT - what was always planned as a subway - could easily morph back into a subway line, but, essentially, we've just said no to free subways.
 
Toronto was going to have to pay the entire $830M for the Finch West streetcar before the province stepped in with this announcement. Toronto was going to share the municipal third of the Spadina extension with York Region, an amount that would have been ~$450M, but we're getting that extension for free now that it's listed as #52 on the MoveOntario list. Anyway, I don't know how you can sit there and claim my math is wrong when you suggest the city of Toronto would spend $2 billion on the Spadina extension...that was never true.

We can claim subways are obscenely expensive but we know - we almost expect - that funding arrangements change and deals with upper levels of government can be made to reduce the burden on municipalities. If all we plan for is a series of streetcars (albeit at a scale that the city alone could possibly not afford), all we're going to get are streetcars. The Eglinton LRT - what was always planned as a subway - could easily morph back into a subway line, but, essentially, we've just said no to free subways.

If the GTTA has any sense at all it will turn Eglinton back into a subway.
 

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