11th
Senior Member
Extend Yonge to north of Finch, increase service on the NS routes in Scarborough to feed into whatever's on Sheppard and Eglinton. Those two should relief the crowding on the Finch East bus.
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Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)
- Thread starter denfromoakvillemilton
- Start date
robmausser
Senior Member
Sheppard is one of those things where, if we could go back in time and do it right the first time, it would already be an LRT.
Same goes for the RT. Sheppard and the Scarborough RT are two huge screwups.
Scarborough was supposed to be an LRT originally, and then it would have been perfect to extend it along Sheppard towards the Yonge Line
Today we would be talking about extending the already built LRT west along finch and connecting it to an extension of the Etobicoke LRT that already runs from Kipling station to Pearson.
Unfortunately we don't live in that situation.
A part of me feels that since we have already started the Sheppard Subway and we are now building the Scarborough Subway, we should just finish the damn thing and connect the two together as one single line.
Then extend Sheppard West to Downsview station.
And then put the Finch LRT along finch as it was proposed.
Sunk costs be damned, my mother always told me to finish what you started the right way and I just cant get that mentality out of my head.
A subway line changing to an LRT to connect to another subway line just irks me!
Same goes for the RT. Sheppard and the Scarborough RT are two huge screwups.
Scarborough was supposed to be an LRT originally, and then it would have been perfect to extend it along Sheppard towards the Yonge Line
Today we would be talking about extending the already built LRT west along finch and connecting it to an extension of the Etobicoke LRT that already runs from Kipling station to Pearson.
Unfortunately we don't live in that situation.
A part of me feels that since we have already started the Sheppard Subway and we are now building the Scarborough Subway, we should just finish the damn thing and connect the two together as one single line.
Then extend Sheppard West to Downsview station.
And then put the Finch LRT along finch as it was proposed.
Sunk costs be damned, my mother always told me to finish what you started the right way and I just cant get that mentality out of my head.
A subway line changing to an LRT to connect to another subway line just irks me!
Interesting question re: Sheppard vs Finch is the subway wasn't there. Honestly, I would tend towards Finch, just for the fact that it's continuous, whereas Sheppard takes a massive jog. Finch East and West both have pretty big ridership numbers for bus routes though. Historically, RT in Toronto has done best when it has been an upgrade of an over capacity surface route.
And also yes, I believe that if we were starting from scratch on Sheppard today, that the design for Sheppard would look very similar to the design for Eglinton, with a central tunnel and at-grade on either end. That configuration is still not outside the realm of possibility, it's just going to require a lot of political balls.
And also yes, I believe that if we were starting from scratch on Sheppard today, that the design for Sheppard would look very similar to the design for Eglinton, with a central tunnel and at-grade on either end. That configuration is still not outside the realm of possibility, it's just going to require a lot of political balls.
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
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A part of me agrees with this. Greatly.
salsa
Senior Member
I happen to have done the exact same thing myself, and it took me a little over a year to get all the transfers. My next goal is to use every single TTC bus route. So far I've been on 105 routes (out of 183).
innsertnamehere
Superstar
Jeez and I thought I was a bit of a deviant for taking the St. Clair streetcar going from Yorkdale to Dundas instead of getting off at St. Patrick..
ehlow
Senior Member
To be honest the one time I've taken the SRT was mainly because I was really curious how it was like. I don't really have a reason to go to STC otherwise.
Growing up I saw the blue line on the map and wondered why it was separate from the green line. After starting to pay attention to transit issues, my curiosity made me want to see and try it, and I felt like I needed to at least ride it and experience the Kennedy transfer at least once if I'm going to read & talk about Scarborough transit issues.
Growing up I saw the blue line on the map and wondered why it was separate from the green line. After starting to pay attention to transit issues, my curiosity made me want to see and try it, and I felt like I needed to at least ride it and experience the Kennedy transfer at least once if I'm going to read & talk about Scarborough transit issues.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
^i've used it a couple times (for legitimate reasons) and man, is it ever loud.
I use Kennedy to transfer to the GO train more often, and Kennedy in general is just a miserable station.
I use Kennedy to transfer to the GO train more often, and Kennedy in general is just a miserable station.
ehlow
Senior Member
Yeah it was loud, but it was also very fast, and honestly the landscape outside the windows was mostly ugly. However I didn't experience all the reliability problems that daily users experience, but I'm not going to. 
Anyways when I told people I took it for without actually needed to, they said I was insane. Maybe it is insane that I decided to try it, but I only went the one time, I feel it was worth satisfying my curiosity. I also had a Metropass so it didn't cost me anything.
Anyways when I told people I took it for without actually needed to, they said I was insane. Maybe it is insane that I decided to try it, but I only went the one time, I feel it was worth satisfying my curiosity
. I also had a Metropass so it didn't cost me anything.
MrsNesbitt
Active Member
Now that's dedication. I'm trying to get all the streetcar routes too first, because the buses would take forever, and Downtowner / Kingston Rd may be the death of me.
Kennedy is one of the most dated stations in the system in my opinion. And the SRT feels and sounds like a wooden roller coaster most of the time.
But I can definitely identify with making the most of a Metropass to explore the system.
andrewpmk
Senior Member
I think that people seriously underestimate demand on Sheppard. It has three employment areas along it (North York Centre, Consumers Road, Scarborough Centre) which collectively have a fair amount of employment which is roughly comparable to the amount of employment along the Bloor-Danforth line plus the proposed extension to Scarborough Centre. One of these areas (North York Centre) has a low vacancy rate which is similar to downtown, so even though it has done poorly because high commercial taxes were high in the late 1990s and early 2000s, I suspect there ought to be demand for new buildings there aside from the Hullmark Centre. Admittedly Consumers and STC have high vacancy rates so I think demand will mostly be westbound in the morning and eastbound in the afternoon. Sheppard also has an enormous concentration of new condos along it, far more than Bloor-Danforth, and runs parallel to the 401. Sheppard certainly is infinitely more useful than the Vaughan subway extension, which runs through low income areas which have low development potential. Vaughan Centre will fail because few people want to live near a CN railway yard, and although one condo is being built there I doubt it if very many more will be built. York University, like other universities, has demand spread out throughout the day instead of heavily concentrated in rush hour, reducing ridership potential. I think that there is opposition to it mostly because people think that everyone wants to go downtown (which is false), because councillors want to do the opposite of Rob Ford to make him look bad, and because Miller deliberately fudged ridership projections to make Sheppard look bad (like he did with Eglinton, and the opposite was done with the Vaughan extension), and because the downtown relief line hasn't been built yet.
11th
Senior Member
The routing (short, and with the 90 degrees bend) really takes away the speed advantage of the vehicles. If only STC is at Kennedy/Sheppard-Agincourt station area, the RT can go straight along the rail ROW all the way to Steeles, all in 20min or less.
MrsNesbitt
Active Member
I think that what you say is partially true. There are certain advantages which you have enumerated to the Sheppard routing, like employment areas, development potential, and proximity to the 401, but the problem is that a Sheppard Subway is just the wrong mode to capitalize on most of these things.
The employment areas along Sheppard aren't to be underestimated, and I think too that more consideration needs to paid to the idea that not everyone works downtown and commutes there in the morning and then back to the suburbs in the evening. To me, the problem with a subway along Sheppard Avenue is that it doesn't take into account the way that a lot of people would reach those buildings. North York Centre may look like a second downtown, but the Consumers Road employment area is very much a suburban office park style development. A lot of those towers are set far back from Consumers by their parking lots, many are located further down Consumers and a walk away from Sheppard itself, and when the choice is between the subway and an underground parking garage only a few minutes' drive from 401 access, a more than sizeable chunk of people will simply drive instead (especially the many 905'ers who work in those buildings, for many of whom TTC subway extensions will do nothing). As for Scarborough Centre, new rapid transit (currently slated as the BD extension but we'll see what happens in that notoriously flip-floppy debate over the election period) will be reaching the area soon, and for better or for worse the SRT does already reach the area. For a Sheppard Subway to reach Scarborough Centre plans for a transit hub at the meeting of the BD extension and Sheppard East LRT at Sheppard/McCowan would have to be abandoned, as would the ability of Sheppard to serve as a northern crosstown route for Scarborough as the subway would have to dip southwards towards STC.
But with regards to what we've already seen from the existing Sheppard stubway, the other factors that you mentioned still can't make the case for a subway on the remainder of the route.
Around the current stations on the Sheppard line a forest of condos has arisen, and yet the line still sees abysmally poor ridership. Why? I think that this effect speaks to a fundamental problem with envisioning the Sheppard line as a 401 alternative. Yes, the line is short now, and that could account for some of the low ridership, but simply put using it can be extremely inconvenient. When living in a condo along the route, taking the time to head deep underground to the overbuilt stations of Line 4 to access a subway which will take you only a short distance before you need to transfer again isn't really as attractive as simply driving where you need to go. Especially so when you factor in the fact that the subway is simply too slow. While cars speed by above ground at 100+ km/h (unless traffic is too heavy) on the 401, you're sliding through the tunnels on a train which has a maximum speed of 88 km/h (the T1s) and doesn't reach that speed, slowing frequently to stop at Bessarion and Leslie and so on...
Really, no Sheppard Subway cannot convince people to get off of the 401 that it parallels. I just don't see that street working in that way, and what we've seen from the existing stubway would only corroborate this account. Sheppard will in all honesty probably work better as an LRT, and when that option is more cost-effective and can be extended further anyhow, it's the better choice.
I realize also that this post is a bit rambling
apologies...Edit: I completely agree with you that the Spadina extension to Vaughan is useless though. That particular line should've stopped at York University, or maybe Steeles West.
ehlow
Senior Member
^ Very good points MrsNesbitt
Large amounts of free parking at office parks severely discourages using transit for commuting.
Of those who live in the condos near Sheppard, a large part don't take transit at all. The part that does take transit only uses it twice a day on weekdays, to go to Yonge and go to work.
Sheppard is only busy in the mornings and afternoons, unlike the Yonge & Bloor lines which have multiple uses and are busy all day with different groups people.
Yonge subway saturday night is filled with people, any day, any time of day.
Large amounts of free parking at office parks severely discourages using transit for commuting.
Of those who live in the condos near Sheppard, a large part don't take transit at all. The part that does take transit only uses it twice a day on weekdays, to go to Yonge and go to work.
Sheppard is only busy in the mornings and afternoons, unlike the Yonge & Bloor lines which have multiple uses and are busy all day with different groups people.
Yonge subway saturday night is filled with people, any day, any time of day.
MrsNesbitt
Active Member
Thank you
It's for these reasons that I don't like suburban subways - they're far too expensive for the kind of travel patterns that they're used for. Some sort of major east-west route in northern Metro is a must eventually, but I think BRT or LRT will work better as a sort of upgrade from milk-run bus service.
For longer-distance travel it disappoints me that we have no northern east-west GO line that could help move 905'ers who would otherwise take the 401 or 407 close to major employment areas like Markham, North York, or the airport region. Out here in Durham I know a lot of people who work in York Region, and if a GO line could link them to fare-integrated TTC and YRT rapid transit across the northern part of the GTA, I'd be willing to bet many would ditch the daily traffic jams for a more pleasant commute.
It's for these reasons that I don't like suburban subways - they're far too expensive for the kind of travel patterns that they're used for. Some sort of major east-west route in northern Metro is a must eventually, but I think BRT or LRT will work better as a sort of upgrade from milk-run bus service.
For longer-distance travel it disappoints me that we have no northern east-west GO line that could help move 905'ers who would otherwise take the 401 or 407 close to major employment areas like Markham, North York, or the airport region. Out here in Durham I know a lot of people who work in York Region, and if a GO line could link them to fare-integrated TTC and YRT rapid transit across the northern part of the GTA, I'd be willing to bet many would ditch the daily traffic jams for a more pleasant commute.