Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[M II A II R II K]

When manual labour and manufacturing is obsolete then robots prefab bing everything and assembling things on site could reduce construction times down to 5%.

 

[BurlOak]

From Don Mills/Eglinton the Scarborough branch would emerge from a tunnel alongside the CPR main freight corridor. This would continue to Warden, where the line would run elevated along Ellesmere to east of Kennedy. The elevated guideway of the SRT would be kept, rebuilt, and extended to Markham Rd/Sheppard as previously proposed.

A route along Don Mills from Eglinton to Sheppard is more of a fantasy addition, but entirely realistic. Preferably it would be elevated - but in-median or tunneled is possible as long as it remains grade-separated. The use of the CPR corridor is a tricky proposition, but the corridor is wide enough to accommodate more tracks through this area and it seems in realm of feasibility.

The aversion of planners to even think of elevation will no doubt kill this idea. Not that the people have any problem with elevation - just planners refuse to consider it.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I believe that the Schabas report had the cost to convert the Sheppard subway to SkyTrain was $100M. (but I think he had a math error and maybe meant +/- $160M).

http://www.neptis.org/sites/default...eptis_schabas_report_dec_2013_finaljuly23.pdf

I'm erring on the side of a math error. No way that the conversion costs $160m

 

[nfitz]

Nobody has yet successfully explained how the DRL will relieve the Yonge Line. It will relieve Yonge-Bloor by reducing the transfers. But how will it relieve the whole Yonge Line?

Simple. The bottleneck on the Yonge line is the time it takes for everyone to get off and on the train at Bloor station.

By significantly reducing the number of people trying to get off and on at Bloor (by building a faster relief line from a point further east, to a point further south), you can reduce the dwell time in the station, allowing for trains to come more frequently on the entire Yonge line.

To a lesser extent, it also helps lower the AM peak-hour ridership south of Bloor station from current levels, which is the busiest point on the line.

Adding a 3rd platform at Bloor station would also help reduce dwell time - however the cost would be phenomenal. Some estimates are over $1 billion. At some point that starts to become competitive with a simple non-stop express from Pape to Queen or King - which would provide more relief at Yonge-Bloor than the 3rd platform.

Smart Track or GO RER can provide the same amount of relief as the DRL as far as Yonge-Bloor is concerned.

Not even close. It would only help divert passengers who get on at Kennedy, and are heading to Union, and perhaps King. If you ride along Danforth at AM peak, you will observed that a lot of people who board at Kennedy have gotten off by Yonge. Some stay on the Bloor subway at Yonge. Some travel north from Yonge. And most of those that go south on Yonge, get off before King! Given the significant amount of walking that's added at Union - I expect most would choose to keep using the subway.

The real question is how to relieve the whole Yonge Line by diverting a good proportion of the demand from the north. I suspect that can't be done without involving some kind of Richmond Hill RER.

This isn't easy, given the winding path down the Don valley. Great for those working south of Front perhaps. But it's not going to get people to U of T, Ryerson, etc.

SmartTrack (which is essentially just improved GO service with some more stations), might be very useful. But it doesn't take the need to relieve Bloor-Yonge station.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Here's my proposal for a Phase II of my previously-posted version of a 'light' DRL. I believe it's realistic, and that both branches can be completed for less than the price of a Sheppard Subway. Funding can be allocated from the SELRT, in-median portion of Eglinton East, and the shortening of the Scarborough Subway to only STC. Its impact on Scarborough, North York, and the commuting pattern of >100,000 would be significant.


From Don Mills/Eglinton the Scarborough branch would emerge from a tunnel alongside the CPR main freight corridor. This would continue to Warden, where the line would run elevated along Ellesmere to east of Kennedy. The elevated guideway of the SRT would be kept, rebuilt, and extended to Markham Rd/Sheppard as previously proposed.

A route along Don Mills from Eglinton to Sheppard is more of a fantasy addition, but entirely realistic. Preferably it would be elevated - but in-median or tunneled is possible as long as it remains grade-separated. The use of the CPR corridor is a tricky proposition, but the corridor is wide enough to accommodate more tracks through this area and it seems in realm of feasibility.

Others have mentioned Richmond Hill RER... I don't believe RER is very realistic south of Sheppard for the Richmond Hill corridor. The route through the valley is too circuitous, flood prone, and unreachable for a significant area of Toronto to be of much use.

Is that rail corridor still being used and if so, is there room to expand it?

 

[44 North]

Honestly this has to be one of the best, if not the best, fantasy map proposals I've seen in a long time. It's simply brilliant. This may be even better than GO RER at and SmartTrack at improving transit in Scarborough, since your proposal goes further east and won't cause additional crowding on Yonge Line. Depending on the projected usage, capital costs and operational costs I'd even support replacing the SELRT with this option if the debate is reopened. I hope this option gets looked at when it's time to extend the DRL north of Eglinton.

Thank you. I'm fascinated at how cities worldwide (or even nationwide) manage to build lengthy stretches of rapid transit in such a short time, and for low cost. IMO it's through embracing the flexibility of 'light' rail, and the realm of possibilities that exists between the two extremes of fully underground and in-median. I also think it would pacify Scarborough's rapid transit demand for many decades.

The only modification I'd make to this would be to interline the Line 2 and Relief Line to a shared terminus at Sheppard-Markham Station. There may need to be more than two platforms at that station to handle demand from both lines.

I can see that being a smart addition...I don't really know the corridor projections or ridership limitations of a light RT. I think keeping costs down is one of the priorities of this map, so I probably wouldn't extend B/D any further than STC for the time being.

 

[44 North]

The aversion of planners to even think of elevation will no doubt kill this idea. Not that the people have any problem with elevation - just planners refuse to consider it.

For the Don Mills branch, you might be correct. The Scarborough branch I think is very realistic. It's only 2km between Warden and east of Kennedy that would need elevating (on top of the SRT plan). That stretch is predominantly industrial, with only about 800m of residential east of Birchmount. Maybe a short tunnel would be required, perhaps that can be cut and cover with a small added cost.

@tiger Yes, it's very much in use. Some national level cooperation and finagling would be needed to acquire that freight corridor section.

 

[gweed123]

I have to say, I really like that plan! If it's using LRT trains, they'll need to be 6 car trains in order to handle the demand. Unfortunately, unless the Don Branch is elevated, that would need to be 3 car trains, max. That would mean running mixed-length trains on the downtown portion, but that's far from the end of the world.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

That is a really nice map, you should repost it on the Transit Fantasy Maps thread.

 

[kEiThZ]

Simple. The bottleneck on the Yonge line is the time it takes for everyone to get off and on the train at Bloor station.

By significantly reducing the number of people trying to get off and on at Bloor (by building a faster relief line from a point further east, to a point further south), you can reduce the dwell time in the station, allowing for trains to come more frequently on the entire Yonge line.

Again. That's at least partly a function of how many people are getting on at the Yonge line further north. The rate limiting factor is not entirely dependent on transfers from the Bloor line. You could lesson transfers from Bloor. But it'll do nothing for the massive demand from the north.

Adding a 3rd platform at Bloor station would also help reduce dwell time - however the cost would be phenomenal. Some estimates are over $1 billion. At some point that starts to become competitive with a simple non-stop express from Pape to Queen or King - which would provide more relief at Yonge-Bloor than the 3rd platform.

We all know that third platform was always a non-starter because of cost.

Not even close. It would only help divert passengers who get on at Kennedy, and are heading to Union, and perhaps King. If you ride along Danforth at AM peak, you will observed that a lot of people who board at Kennedy have gotten off by Yonge. Some stay on the Bloor subway at Yonge. Some travel north from Yonge. And most of those that go south on Yonge, get off before King! Given the significant amount of walking that's added at Union - I expect most would choose to keep using the subway.

You are assuming that I'm just talking about Smart Track. In reality, we need a full RER in this region. And many of those other lines will relieve the Yonge line in due course. When it comes to your other assertion about most people staying on the subway, your analysis doesn't take into travel time. Let's say you start at Kennedy and your destination in King station. Would you take the Bloor Line and transfer at Yonge or take the Smart Track/RER (with fewer stops and faster speeds) and transfer at Union? If the difference in travel times is sufficient enough, you might even induce some reverse travel along the Bloor-Danforth with transfers at both Main-Danforth and Kennedy station.

This isn't easy, given the winding path down the Don valley. Great for those working south of Front perhaps. But it's not going to get people to U of T, Ryerson, etc.

Again, counter-peak flow. If I was a Ryerson student starting RHC and had a choice of bus to Finch and then a subway ride to Dundas or a train ride from Longstaff and a quick few stops up the Yonge line, I'd choose the latter. Not every student might do that. But quite a few will.

SmartTrack (which is essentially just improved GO service with some more stations), might be very useful. But it doesn't take the need to relieve Bloor-Yonge station.

Well, this is exactly what Metrolinx is studying, isn't it? And I think many are going to be surprised when they prioritize RER over the DRL. We'll know in a few months.

 

[nfitz]

You could lesson transfers from Bloor. But it'll do nothing for the massive demand from the north.

Yes it will. By lessening transfer from Bloor you reduce the dwell time on the Yonge Line, and then trains can run more frequently on the Yonge line, increasing capacity. Also, currently, the busiest point on the line, isn't in the north. It's south of Bloor. That's both the pinch-point and the bottleneck. This has been the entire assumption of the Downtown Relief Line since the mid-1980s.

We all know that third platform was always a non-starter because of cost.

It'll be expensive. But I wouldn't be surprised if it happens. Though a second platform on the Bloor line is more likely.

You are assuming that I'm just talking about Smart Track. In reality, we need a full RER in this region.

Yes - SmartTrack. For all intents and purposes, it is full RER.

And many of those other lines will relieve the Yonge line in due course.

Some. But not to any great extent. Richmond Hill station is too far north. Stations at Bloor and Eglinton will be tough to get to. Union Station is a lot further south than a lot of people are going. The most AM arrivals at a station south of Bloor is Dundas - and RER doesn't help this much.

When it comes to your other assertion about most people staying on the subway, your analysis doesn't take into travel time. Let's say you start at Kennedy and your destination in King station. Would you take the Bloor Line and transfer at Yonge or take the Smart Track/RER (with fewer stops and faster speeds) and transfer at Union? If the difference in travel times is sufficient enough, you might even induce some reverse travel along the Bloor-Danforth with transfers at both Main-Danforth and Kennedy station.

If the difference in travel times is sufficient, yes you would. But I already discussed this at great length previously. If your destination is King, you might save a couple of minutes in travel time, given the long walk from Union. BUT the SmartTrack planned frequency is only once every 15 minutes. So if your nice and comfy on you subway train coming from Scarborough Centre - do you get off at Kennedy and risk waiting 15 minutes in the cold ... or do you stay in the seat you probably have on the subway train, and keep going to Yonge (or Pape and switch to the DRL). Most importantly ... most travellers are getting on WEST of Kennedy currently. SmartTrack does nothing for someone near Warden station - let alone Coxwell.

Again, counter-peak flow. If I was a Ryerson student starting RHC and had a choice of bus to Finch and then a subway ride to Dundas or a train ride from Longstaff and a quick few stops up the Yonge line, I'd choose the latter. Not every student might do that. But quite a few will.

Sure, until the Yonge line is extended to RHC ... which could well be completed in about the same timeframe as RER on that line.

Well, this is exactly what Metrolinx is studying, isn't it? And I think many are going to be surprised when they prioritize RER over the DRL. We'll know in a few months.

Personally, I think based on the previous demand modelling, once they take a look at how little impact the various RER schemes have on the number of people transferring at Bloor-Yonge, they will conclude that they need a DRL in addition to the RER schemes - at least a short one from the Danforth line to the Yonge line. So let's put a pin in it, and see what the results of the study say in a few years ...

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I have to say, I really like that plan! If it's using LRT trains, they'll need to be 6 car trains in order to handle the demand. Unfortunately, unless the Don Branch is elevated, that would need to be 3 car trains, max. That would mean running mixed-length trains on the downtown portion, but that's far from the end of the world.

Why would there need to be LRT trains? Just run the whole thing with normal six car TRs (or something similar). Some of them could short turn at Kennedy (or wherever)

 

[TheTigerMaster]

That is a really nice map, you should repost it on the Transit Fantasy Maps thread.

44 North should ls post to Reddit.

 

[salsa]

Whatever respect I was starting to have for Norm Kelly is never coming back. Scarborough has the worst politicians in the entire GTA.

Mayoral candidate Doug Ford already intends to cancel it, but even if John Tory—who supports it—is elected, Scarborough councillors plan to try and do away with it through a vote in 2015, which they hope will make their case to the province.

Deputy Mayor Norm Kelly has been building support for the shelving of the project, saying he’s been speaking to Liberal MPPs in Scarborough about discussing the matter with Premier Kathleen Wynne after a vote in city council.

“I want them collectively to join me in making another request of the premier to either commit to a subway [on Sheppard East],†he said, “or delay funding of an LRT.â€

Raymond Cho (Ward 42, Scarborough-Rouge River), who initially backed the LRT project, recently said that he suspects most Scarborough councillors would vote against it, even in the event of a Tory victory.

http://torontoist.com/2014/10/the-fate-of-the-sheppard-east-light-rail-line/

 

[BurlOak]

I'm erring on the side of a math error. No way that the conversion costs $160m

Schabas said it was $20M /km, which is $50M, and with the portal the total is $100M.

To me his math error is $20M /km x 5.5 km = $110M + $50M (portal) is $160M.

By saying you think he had a math error, are you agreeing with the $160M.

After all, it is much easier to fit smaller high floor vehicles into existing tunnels with high floor stations, than to fit larger vehicles with low floor vehicles into existing tunnels with high floor stations.